0001 1 JUDICIAL MERIT SELECTION COMMITTEE 2 3 OPEN SESSIONS 4 PUBLIC HEARINGS ON JUDICIAL QUALIFICATIONS 5 6 VOLUME I 7 TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2008 8 THIRD FLOOR CONFERENCE ROOM 9 STATE HOUSE 10 COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA 11 12 COMMENCING AT 9:20 a.m. 13 14 REPORTED BY: CYNTHIA FIRST, RPR, CRR 15 16 17 18 19 COMPUSCRIPTS, INC. 20 A Full-Service Court Reporting Agency 21 Post Office Box 7172 22 Columbia, South Carolina 29202 23 1-803-988-0086 24 1-888-988-0086 25 www.compuscriptsinc.com 0002 1 MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE: 2 REPRESENTATIVE F.G. DELLENEY, JR., CHAIRMAN SENATOR GLENN F. McCONNELL, VICE CHAIRMAN 3 SENATOR ROBERT FORD SENATOR JOHN M. KNOTTS, JR. 4 PROFESSOR JOHN P. FREEMAN MS. AMY JOHNSON McLESTER 5 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN D. CLEMMONS REPRESENTATIVE DAVID J. MACK, III 6 JOHN DAVIS HARRELL, ESQUIRE 7 8 COUNSEL PRESENT: 9 JANE O. SHULER, CHIEF COUNSEL J.J. GENTRY 10 KATHERINE WELLS BRADLEY S. WRIGHT 11 PATRICK G. DENNIS BONNIE B. GOLDSMITH 12 ANDREW FIFFICK, IV PAULA BENSON 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The Judicial Merit 2 Selection Commission is called pursuant to Chapter 19 of 3 Title 2, South Carolina Code of Laws, requiring the 4 review of candidates for judicial office. The function 5 of the Commission is not to choose between candidates, 6 but rather to declare whether or not the candidates who 7 offer for positions on the bench are, in our judgment, 8 qualified to fill the positions. 9 The inquiry we undertake is a thorough one. 10 It is centered around the Commission's nine evaluative 11 criteria and involves a complete personal and 12 professional background check on every candidate. These 13 public hearings are convened for the purpose of 14 screening candidates for the following positions: 15 One vacancy on the Court of Appeals; 16 16 vacancies on the Circuit Court, two vacancies on the 17 Family Court; two vacancies on the Administrative Law 18 Court; eight vacancies on the Equity Court; and one 19 retired Family Court judge. 20 We will proceed with the screening. Do I hear 21 a motion? So moved. 22 (Executive session continued under separate 23 record.) 24 25 0040 1 * * * * * 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We're now in open session. 3 Based on a list compiled by staff, the following fall 4 2008 candidates seeking reelection or the candidates for 5 waiver whose Personal Data Questionnaires require a 6 technical amendment that does not affect the candidates' 7 eligibility for waiver, those candidates are Judge 8 Gordon G. Cooper, Judge 9 Charles B. Simmons, Junior, Judge Rupert Markley Dennis, 10 Junior. Is that correct? 11 MS. SHULER: That's correct. 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: I ask at this time that 13 the Personal Data Questionnaire summary and sworn 14 statements for all the waiver candidates, as well as the 15 amendments for Personal Data Questionnaires for the 16 above candidates that I've just named, Judges Cooper, 17 Simmons and Dennis, be entered as exhibits in 18 the hearing record. Is there any objection to that? 19 Hearing none, the Personal Data 20 Questionnaires, sworn statements for all waivered 21 candidates, as well as the amendments for the above 22 candidates, will be entered into the record at this 23 time. 24 (R. Markley Dennis, Jr. Amendment to PDQ 25 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 1, for identification.) 0041 1 (Charles B. Simmons, Jr. Amendment to PDQ 2 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 2, for identification.) 3 (Gordon G. Cooper Amendment to PDQ marked JMSC 4 Exhibit Number 3, for identification.) 7 (JMSC PDQ for Pandora Jones-Glover marked JMSC 8 Exhibit Number 5, for identification.) 9 (JMSC PDQ for Kaye G. Hearn marked JMSC 10 Exhibit Number 6, for identification.) 11 (JMSC PDQ for G. Thomas Cooper, Jr. marked 12 JMSC Exhibit Number 7, for identification.) 13 (JMSC PDQ for Roger M. Young, Sr. marked JMSC 14 Exhibit Number 8, for identification.) 15 (JMSC PDQ for Carmen Mullen marked JMSC 16 Exhibit Number 9, for identification.) 17 (JMSC PDQ for Benjamin H. Culbertson marked 18 JMSC Exhibit Number 10, for identification.) 19 (JMSC PDQ for Rupert Markley Dennis, Jr. 20 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 11, for identification.) 21 (JMSC PDQ for Edward Walter "Ned" Miller 22 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 12, for identification.) 23 (JMSC PDQ for J. Mark Hayes, II, marked JMSC 24 Exhibit Number 13, for identification.) 25 (JMSC PDQ for Jesse Cordell Maddox, Jr. marked 0042 1 JMSC Exhibit Number 14, for identification.) 2 (JMSC PDQ for J. Michelle Childs marked JMSC 3 Exhibit Number 15, for identification.) 4 6 (JMSC PDQ for Marvin H. Dukes, III, marked 7 JMSC Exhibit Number 17, for identification.) 8 (JMSC PDQ for Martin R. Banks marked JMSC 9 Exhibit Number 18, for identification.) 10 (JMSC PDQ for Charles B. Simmons, Jr. marked 11 JMSC Exhibit Number 19, for identification.) 12 (JMSC PDQ for Gordon G. Cooper marked JMSC 13 Exhibit Number 20, for identification.) 14 (JMSC PDQ for Stonewall Jackson Kimball, III, 15 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 21, for identification.) 16 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Based upon staff's summary 17 to the fall 2008 candidates seeking reelection 18 provisions and the provisions of South Carolina Code 19 Section 2-19-40, I would request that we waive the 20 following candidates at their request made by the 21 members of the Commission for a public hearing 22 concerning that candidate's election in the usual seat 23 which he or she serves. As you know, the Commission 24 Chairman upon recommendation of the Commission may 25 determine that the public hearing is unnecessary and may 0043 1 not be held for that candidate. Proposed candidates for 2 waiver are Judge Kaye Hearn for the Court of Appeals, 3 Circuit Court Judges G. Thomas Cooper, Junior, Roger M. 4 Young, Senior, Carmen Tevis Mullen, Benjamin H. 5 Culbertson, Rupert Markley Dennis, Edward Walter Miller, 6 J. Mark Hayes, II, Jesse Cordell Maddox, Junior, and J. 7 Michelle Childs. 8 9 Masters-in-Equity, Marvin H. Dukes, Martin R. Banks, 10 Charles B. Simmons, Gordon G. Cooper and S. Kimball 11 Jackson. 12 PROF. FREEMAN: S. Jackson Kimball. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: S. Jackson Kimball, III, 14 correct. All in favor of waiving those candidates, do 15 so by raising your hand. 16 (Hands raised.) 17 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any opposed? 18 (Hands raised.) 19 SENATOR KNOTTS: Mr. Chairman, I think we need 20 to on a couple of them should have been waived. I would 21 have no problem with a couple of them, but there's a few 22 of them on there that, obviously, questions need to be 23 asked about them concerning their work ethic in the 24 courtroom and their temperament. And I think that 25 instead of doing it for a blanket, I think it's 0044 1 better -- sometimes you get caught up in a blanket and 2 you get a free ride. I think there is a couple of them 3 that we need to talk to them about their work ethic in 4 the courtroom and also their temperament. 5 I certainly vote not to waive, and I did it on 6 an individual basis. I just don't think you ought to 7 get a free ride when you come before the judicial 8 screening. We know that those questions need to be 9 asked by the judicial system. It will help make our 10 courts run smoother. 11 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Having said that, all the 12 judges that I offered for waiver are people who had 13 absolutely no problems indicated in their record. So 14 once again, if there's no further discussion, I would 15 call for the vote. 16 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, sir. 18 SENATOR FORD: In the future, can Attorney 19 Shuler maybe question the candidates on their ethics, 20 work ethics, and also -- what was the other one you were 21 concerned with? Work ethics and temperament. When the 22 committee -- 23 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The staff does that. 24 SENATOR FORD: What about the other people who 25 give us a report, those community groups? 0045 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: They didn't have any 2 problems with any of these candidates. These candidates 3 were clean. 4 So we'll call for a vote. All in favor of 5 waiving candidates, raise your hand. 6 (Hands raised.) 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: All opposed? 8 (Hands raised.) 9 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The two nays are noted in 10 the record, and we will waive those candidates. 11 The next vote we have is a rule change vote 12 which all the members are familiar with. It conforms 13 with the statute in as far as letters of recommendation 14 and complaints we received no later than two weeks prior 15 to the deadline, except for those circumstances in which 16 the Commission determines that they want to investigate 17 those matters, we still have that capability. That was 18 a rule change with rule number 13. All in favor of rule 19 change number 13, raise your hand. 20 (Hands raised.) 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any opposed? Ayes have 22 it. 23 The other was rule number 8, which dealt with 24 just a change concerning flash drives versus disks, 25 which is a technical change to rule 8. All in favor, 0046 1 say aye. 2 (Hands raised.) 3 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Opposed, no. Ayes have 4 it. 5 Counsel, if you would, tell us about the 6 Citizens Committee. 7 MS. SHULER: At this time I would like to 8 offer the Citizens Committee report for the fall of 2008 9 from the Lowcountry Citizens Committee, Midland Citizens 10 Committee, Pee Dee Citizens Committee, Piedmont Citizens 11 Committee and Upstate Citizens Committee into the record 12 as an exhibit. 13 Also, I'd like to offer the Citizens Committee 14 Report for the Upstate from the fall of 2007 and the 15 spring of 2008 as it relates to the Family Court 16 candidates in the 13th Judicial Circuit and the 17 candidates who were screened by the Upstate Citizens 18 Committee in the fall of 2007. 19 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Are there any objections? 20 Hearing none, I ask at this time that the Lowcountry 21 Citizens Committee, Midland Citizens Committee, Pee Dee 22 Citizens Committee, Piedmont Citizens Committee and the 23 Upstate Citizens Committee for the fall of 2008 and for 24 the fall of 2007 also be marked as exhibits and entered 25 into the public record at this time. That will be done 0047 1 at this point in the transcript. 2 (Upstate Citizens Committee Report of November 3 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 22, for identification.) 4 (Upstate Citizens Committee Report of March 5 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 23, for identification.) 6 (Midlands Citizens Committee Report of 7 November 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 24, for 8 identification.) 9 (Pee Dee Citizens Committee Report of October 10 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 25, for identification.) 11 (Lowcountry Citizens Committee Report of 12 October 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 26, for 13 identification.) 14 (Piedmont Citizens Committee Report of 15 November 2008 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 27, for 16 identification.) 17 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We are going to take Judge 18 Glover out of order. All the House members are going to 19 have to leave at some point to get our seats in the 20 lottery. 21 MR. WRIGHT: I have a copy of a complaint in 22 Judge Pandora Jones' case, as well as some affidavits 23 that were filed by witnesses in this case that I'd like 24 to provide the Commission before we get started. 25 MS. SHULER: Judge Jones should be Tab 3, I 0048 1 believe. 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Today we have before us 3 The Honorable Pandora Jones-Glover who seeks a position 4 on the Circuit Court for the First Judicial Circuit, 5 Seat Number 1. If you would, Judge Glover, raise your 6 right hand to be sworn. 7 PANDORA JONES-GLOVER, being first duly sworn, 8 testified as follows: 9 EXAMINATION 10 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, ma'am. The 11 Judicial Merit Selection Commission has thoroughly 12 investigated your qualifications for the bench. Our 13 inquiry has focused on nine evaluative criteria which 14 have included a survey of the Bench and Bar, a thorough 15 study of your application material, verification of no 16 complaints of the State ethics laws, a search of 17 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a study 18 of previous screenings, and a check for economic 19 conflicts of interest. 20 We have received one affidavit filed in 21 opposition to your election, and there are two witnesses 22 present to testify. Do you have a brief opening 23 statement that you would like to make at this time? 24 THE WITNESS: I do. I am Pandora 25 Jones-Glover. I am currently serving as the Orangeburg 0049 1 County probate judge. I have been serving in that 2 capacity for the past four years. I was originally 3 appointed in July of 2004. I've had the pleasure of 4 serving the citizens of Orangeburg County and the 5 community at large. Again, it has been a privilege and 6 an honor. As probate judge I serve family members that 7 have lost their loved ones, and some of those people 8 that are interested in protecting some of the most 9 vulnerable people in our community. I've gained a lot 10 of satisfaction from my work and I'd like to increase my 11 area of service. 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, ma'am. If you 13 would at this time, answer any questions our counsel may 14 have for you. 15 THE WITNESS: Certainly. 16 MR. WRIGHT: Good morning, Judge. 17 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 18 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman and members of the 19 Commission, I have a few procedural matters to take care 20 of. 21 Judge Jones-Glover, do you have an amendment 22 to your Personal Data Questionnaire? 23 THE WITNESS: I do. 24 MR. WRIGHT: Can I get a copy of that, please? 25 THE WITNESS: (Handing.) 0050 1 MR. WRIGHT: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 2 would like to ask that Judge Jones-Glover's Personal 3 Data Questionnaire be entered as an exhibit and the 4 amendment be entered as an exhibit into the record. 5 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any objection? Without 6 any objection, it will be entered. 7 (JMSC PDQ of Pandora Jones-Glover marked JMSC 8 Exhibit Number 28, for identification.) 9 (Affidavits Concerning The Honorable Pandora 10 Jones-Glover marked JMSC Exhibit Number 29, for 11 identification.) 12 MR. WRIGHT: Judge Jones-Glover also provided 13 a sworn statement with detailed answers to over 30 14 questions regarding judicial conduct, statutory 15 qualifications, office administration and temperament. 16 That statement was provided to all Commission members 17 earlier and is included in your notebooks. I have no 18 concern with the statement, and with the Commission's 19 approval I would ask those questions be waived in the 20 public hearing today. 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Is there any objection? 22 Hearing none, it will be done at this point in the 23 transcript. 24 (Statement of Pandora Jones-Glover marked JMSC 25 Exhibit Number 30, for identification.) 0051 1 MR. WRIGHT: One final procedural matter. I 2 note for the record that based on the testimony 3 contained in the candidate's PDQ, which has been 4 included in the record with the candidate's consent, 5 Judge Jones-Glover meets the statutory requirements for 6 this position, regarding age, residence and years of 7 practice. 8 BY MR. WRIGHT: 9 Q Judge Jones-Glover, why do you now want to 10 serve as a Circuit Court judge? 11 A As I said earlier, I have gained lots of 12 satisfaction from working with the family members that I 13 have encountered in probate court, and I'd pretty much 14 like to increase my area of service. I do feel that I 15 embody the qualities that would make a good judge, as I 16 am currently serving as a judge. My integrity, I 17 believe in what I do, and I'm a hard worker, and I think 18 I would be an asset to the Circuit Court bench. 19 Q Judge, although you addressed this in your 20 sworn affidavit, could you please tell the members of 21 the Commission what you think is the appropriate 22 demeanor for a judge? 23 A I think a judge should, first and foremost, be 24 fair and impartial. All defendants, plaintiffs, anybody 25 that comes before the judge, I feel, should be treated 0052 1 with dignity and respect. 2 Q Judge, if elected and after having served on 3 the bench, what would you like your legacy to be as a 4 Circuit Court judge? 5 A Basically that I worked hard, I did the best 6 that I could for the citizens that came before me, and 7 basically my integrity. I think it's important for a 8 judge to have integrity, to conduct themselves in a 9 professional, dignified and courteous manner at all 10 times. 11 Q Judge, what suggestions would you offer for 12 improving the backlog of cases on the docket in the 13 Circuit Court? 14 A In general sessions, I would like to maybe 15 increase the use of technology, for example, bond 16 hearings, preliminary hearings, so forth, via the web 17 cam. I would increase the amounts of mental health 18 courts, drug courts. A lot of those people that commit 19 crimes based on their addiction to drugs or their mental 20 illness, I would take them from the docket and refer 21 them to a specialized court. 22 We currently have a case management system. 23 But what I would do is conduct regular meetings to meet 24 with public defenders, solicitors, members of the 25 private bar to determine what cases they plan to bring 0053 1 before the Court at the next term of court, to encourage 2 them to have a backup plan. My experience in the 3 Solicitor's Office is when a case is called to trial and 4 the defendant decides to plea guilty, oftentimes the 5 term of court will basically fall apart because there 6 was no backup plan. So I would encourage regular 7 meetings of all the parties involved. 8 As far as civil court, I would pretty much do 9 the same thing of maybe a specialized court. If there 10 are lots of condemnation cases in a particular area, I 11 would refer a judge to handle those cases alone. So I 12 would try to use specialized courts whenever I could. 13 Q Judge, you had one Bench and Bar report 14 submitted which causes me to ask you, how do you go 15 about your preparation for cases as probate court judge, 16 as well as a description of your schedule on a typical 17 day as a probate court judge? 18 A Okay. In order to prepare for hearings, is 19 that the question? 20 Q Yes, ma'am. 21 A To prepare for hearings, I have a litigation 22 supervisor. Her responsibility includes researching the 23 file and bringing me up to date procedurally, telling me 24 where we are with the case. And she will basically 25 outline what the petitioner is requesting. I would then 0054 1 review the file. She would also let me know where they 2 are procedurally, whether or not notice requirements 3 have been met, summons and notices from hearings. 4 I would review the petition, determine the 5 issues of law. And then I have a file folder. Say, for 6 example, if I'm addressing a fraud issue, I would go to 7 that file folder and it has a case that spells out the 8 nine elements of fraud. If there's an issue that is 9 novel to me, an issue that I've never addressed before 10 or my predecessor, and there's no file, basically, I 11 would create a file. We researched in the past by 12 Lexis-Nexis. Recently it's Westlaw. So basically I 13 research the areas of law before I actually go to the 14 bench. 15 My normal day would consist of I would check 16 my messages, check my e-mails, respond to any calls or 17 e-mails. We have boxes in our office. I will check 18 that to see if there's anything that has to be 19 addressed. I deal with phone calls, customer concerns. 20 I assist my staff, I see if they have any questions of 21 me. If I have trials, as I said, I prepare for them. 22 If not, I am preparing Orders, reviewing Orders, signing 23 Orders. So that's pretty much a typical day for me. 24 Q What would your typical hours for a day in 25 court be like? 0055 1 A What would they be like? Well, we try to 2 schedule a case -- it depends on the matter. If it's 3 appointment of conservatorship, that can be done in 30 4 minutes, so I'll have those every 30 minutes. If it's 5 someone trying to determine a commonwealth spouse, that 6 may take a little more time, so we may set aside an hour 7 for a hearing of that sort. 8 Q Judge, the Lowcountry Citizens Committee 9 issued a report stating that your temperament was 10 questionable based on your dismissive and evasive 11 answers. Can you explain to the Commission why the 12 Lowcountry Citizens Committee would issue such a report 13 and tell the Commission what you believe is the 14 appropriate temperament for a judge? 15 A Well, I said earlier that I feel that a judge 16 should be patient, dignified, courteous, respectful, 17 fair and impartial of all parties, court personnel, 18 attorneys, defendants, whoever appears before the Court. 19 I feel that they should exemplify those qualities. 20 I certainly don't know why they would have 21 gotten that. It was the first step in this process. I 22 didn't know quite what to expect, but I do apologize if 23 I came across as being dismissive or evasive. It 24 certainly was not my intention. 25 Q Thank you, Judge. We have a complaint in this 0056 1 case, and at this time I'm going to ask -- 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: If you would, Judge 3 Glover, if you could just have a seat in that chair 4 right behind you, perhaps. 5 (Witness excused.) 6 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We'll call the witness up 7 to be sworn. Judge Williams. State your full name for 8 the record, Judge. 9 THE WITNESS: James C. Williams. 10 JAMES C. WILLIAMS, JR., being first duly 11 sworn, testified as follows: 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, sir. Would you 13 answer any questions that our counsel might have? 14 THE WITNESS: I'll be glad to. 15 EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. WRIGHT: 17 Q Judge Williams, could you please briefly set 18 forth for the Commission the nature of the complaint 19 against Judge Jones-Glover? 20 A I will. Let me state first that I'm really 21 not here because I want to be. I take no joy in being 22 here today. I do feel a powerful sense, a duty to 23 protect the integrity of the judiciary. I've been a 24 judge for 10 and a half years. I'm proud of that 25 service, and I think it is a tremendous obligation that 0057 1 we have in the judiciary. 2 I can't add a whole lot to what I put in my 3 written report. It just happened last December, when a 4 young lady who had negotiated a settlement for her minor 5 son who had been injured in an automobile accident came 6 before me for approval of that settlement. That's 7 standard procedure, for some of you who are not 8 attorneys. If you're not an adult, you cannot sign 9 releases and that type of thing. So a guardian ad litem 10 has to be appointed for that minor. And I think this 11 child was 17 at that time. So his mother, I appointed 12 his mother guardian ad litem. She had already 13 negotiated with the defendant on an insurance carrier a 14 nice settlement. It wasn't a huge settlement, but -- 15 and she was not represented by an attorney. She said 16 she did not have any money to hire an attorney, didn't 17 think she needed one. And that always puts me on the 18 alert, and I look very carefully at the facts of the 19 case to see whether I think the person is really making 20 a serious mistake in not having an attorney to look at 21 it. I kind of looked at that and determined that 22 probably she's done about as good as she could do under 23 the circumstances. 24 And so I approved the settlement and told her, 25 as I tell everybody, you know, you have to be appointed 0058 1 by the Probate Court as conservator for this estate for 2 this money. You're not free to just spend it, but the 3 Probate Court is charged with the responsibility of 4 supervising that conservatorship to see that the money 5 is spent for the child's best interest. And she 6 understood that. 7 And the attorney who had represented the 8 defendant in the case had already talked to her about 9 that, and he told me they were going downstairs to get 10 that taken care of. And this attorney was going to 11 accompany her, although he did not represent her, he 12 represented the defendant in this case -- she, I think 13 it was a female person. So that was the end of it as 14 far as I was concerned. 15 But it wasn't very long before we were back 16 upstairs and said that the Court would not even let her 17 file to be appointed as a conservator for her son. I 18 said, "What?" 19 She said, "They said I had to have a lawyer. 20 They wouldn't even give me the forms to fill out to be 21 appointed as conservator for my son." 22 I mean, I felt an obligation to the lady. And 23 so I said, "Let me walk downstairs and talk with them 24 and see if there is some problem." So I did that and I 25 was informed that the judge was out on maternity leave. 0059 1 But Ms. Rael was there. I've known Ms. Rael a long 2 time. We are not personal friends. We are 3 acquaintances. She's worked in the court house a long 4 time under the former -- two former judges, and I knew 5 that. She had a lot of experience there. 6 And I just said, you know, "What's the 7 problem? This lady doesn't have a lawyer. She said she 8 doesn't want a lawyer, can't afford one at this point. 9 She says y'all won't let her file a petition." 10 She said, "That's right. Judge Jones-Glover 11 says nobody can file a petition unless they're 12 represented by a lawyer." 13 I said, "Ms. Rael, I don't think that's right. 14 You denied her access to the Probate Court. She cannot 15 get the money, she cannot spend the money unless she is 16 appointed conservator. I've approved the settlement, 17 and I think you should allow her to fill out the forms 18 and deal with it from that point in time." 19 She said, "Well, no. Judge has instructed me 20 that nobody gets forms unless they have a lawyer. They 21 have to be represented. We don't even give them forms." 22 And I said, "Well, I just don't think that's 23 right." 24 She said, "It wouldn't matter anyhow because 25 nobody could appoint her until the judge gets back from 0060 1 maternity leave." 2 I said, "Well, Loxie, you are the deputy 3 judge. You can appoint her if you think it needs to be 4 done and it's appropriate to appoint her. You can do 5 that as deputy judge." 6 She said, "No, the judge won't let me do that. 7 She has to do it. So even if I let her fill out the 8 form, nothing can happen until the judge came back from 9 maternity leave." 10 And so I left. I had nothing further to say 11 or nothing to do with it. That was my total involvement 12 until I was contacted later by some other people, as 13 I've listed in my affidavit. 14 It really bothered me because, you know, as a 15 circuit judge, we have a lot of power, and I take that 16 responsibility very seriously. And sometimes you have 17 to bite your tongue and realize that you have to use the 18 authority you have judiciously. And I don't think she 19 was -- I think this was an example of an attitude where 20 the authority the probate judge had was misused. No 21 question, she had the ability to do exactly what she 22 did, but it resulted in a citizen of the state being 23 absolutely denied the benefit of the legal system. 24 The approval I gave for the settlement was no 25 good because without a conservatorship, the money 0061 1 couldn't be paid to anybody. So this lady had to wait 2 until that boy turned 18 years old. And she had medical 3 bills to pay. That was the reason that she came to me 4 and expressed that, as I was doing the settlement, that 5 she needed the money to pay the medical bills she was 6 getting letters about. And this lady was denied that 7 simply because the judge had the power to do it. I just 8 think that's a failure to recognize that the 9 responsibility we have in the judiciary to protect the 10 rights of our citizens, especially in this case, with 11 access to our court system. 12 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I have no further 13 questions for Judge Williams. 14 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Ford. Any other 15 member has permission to follow up after Senator Ford. 16 BY SENATOR FORD: 17 Q So you never made contact with Judge Jones? 18 A No. 19 Q But you got a complaint against her and you 20 never made contact? 21 A I contacted the office. I was told that Judge 22 Jones-Glover was out on maternity leave. The deputy 23 judge was speaking on her behalf. 24 Q But that's third party. 25 A No. How could I possibly go behind her and 0062 1 call the judge at home? Do you want me to call her at 2 home while she's on maternity leave? 3 Q I would prefer you try instead of coming in 4 and saying you've got a complaint against the judge and 5 not even talked to her. 6 A Well, I'm sorry. I didn't that was 7 appropriate at the time. 8 SENATOR FORD: Is that appropriate to have a 9 complaint against a judge and not even talk to her? 10 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: You can have a complaint 11 against a judge. 12 SENATOR FORD: And not talk to her? 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yeah. 14 Yes, sir, Senator McConnell. 15 BY SENATOR McCONNELL: 16 Q Judge, first of all, I want to thank you for 17 taking the time out of your busy schedule. 18 A I'm on vacation this week. 19 Q Even so, to do so for good government is a 20 sacrifice, and I want to thank you. And I want to thank 21 you for having the conscience to serve the public with 22 an issue that needed to be aired. 23 These judges need to understand they're there 24 to serve out justice and to do it in a way that instills 25 confidence by the public. And I'm concerned about this 0063 1 from the standpoint of where the law is that says that 2 that person's got to have a lawyer. Can you tell me if 3 there's a law on the books that says -- 4 A No, not to my knowledge. In fact, I called 5 Probate Court in Columbia after I left Probate Court in 6 Orangeburg, and they told me no, that they had no such 7 practice and did not think well of that practice. 8 There's no law that forces you to have an attorney, to 9 my knowledge, no, sir. 10 Q I've always heard that justice delayed is 11 justice denied. Is it my understanding from your 12 testimony that this lady had to wait to be able to spend 13 this money for the benefit of the minor? 14 A She had to wait a number of months until he 15 turned 18, and then he settled the case and got the 16 money himself and paid -- of course, his mother was 17 right there with him when he got the check to see the 18 bills got paid. 19 Q So going firsthand knowledge, after you had 20 gone down there and questioned this and asked about 21 getting the appointment, no remedial action was taken 22 after that by the Court, to your knowledge? 23 A That's right. 24 Q So this situation lingered on? 25 A Yes. 0064 1 Q And this was a deputy judge who you talked to? 2 A Absolutely. 3 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you, sir. 4 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts. 5 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 6 Q Judge, so when you went to the Court, to the 7 Probate Court to talk with the deputy probate judge, 8 right? 9 A I'm not sure I knew Judge Jones-Glover was out 10 on maternity leave, but when I got there, I was told 11 that. I just don't remember whether I knew that before 12 I went down there. But I went to talk to somebody in 13 charge to see if I could help this lady get appointed. 14 I didn't know specifically who I would talk to when I 15 went. 16 Q Right. But usually whenever a judge is out on 17 maternity leave or something like that, the deputy 18 probate judge usually stands in for that judge. And if 19 she or he has a problem, they would contact their judge 20 to help correct it or something while they're out on 21 leave, right? 22 A I would think so. That would be between 23 the -- 24 Q Probate Courts just don't shut down when 25 somebody is having a baby? 0065 1 A It shouldn't shut the court down, no, sir, 2 you're right. 3 Q I want to commend you for coming up here, too. 4 I have a problem whenever bureaucracy steps in like that 5 and denies somebody the judicial process. It's a system 6 that we've got to keep running. 7 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman. 8 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, sir, Senator Ford. 9 SENATOR FORD: I would agree with both you and 10 Senator McConnell, but I have no proof that Judge Jones 11 ever was made aware of this. We are just hearing this 12 gentleman's side of the story. 13 SENATOR KNOTTS: We'll be able to ask her in a 14 few minutes. 15 THE WITNESS: I can add one thing in that 16 regard. As I mentioned in my report, I think it was 17 about a week later, she called my office and talked with 18 my secretary. I still have the written note my 19 secretary had wrote down. She understood I had been to 20 her office and she wanted to know the nature of my 21 visit. So she was made aware of it at that time. 22 BY SENATOR FORD: 23 Q You talked to the judge then? 24 A I didn't call her then. She knew exactly what 25 the nature of my visit was, and I didn't feel that I 0066 1 would gain anything by calling her at that time. 2 Q But, Judge, why not give somebody the benefit 3 of the doubt? Why not call her? I mean, I want to 4 support you, but I can't support you when it looks like 5 you're not bending over backwards to make the effort to 6 talk to the judge. I mean, do y'all have a personal 7 problem with each other? 8 A No, sir, absolutely not. Senator, some people 9 could criticize me for going down to the Probate Court. 10 Q I commend you on that. That was a good 11 effort. 12 A All right. So what I'm looking at is how far 13 do I go? Do I want to pick up this lady's claim and be 14 an advocate to her and try to persuade somebody against 15 their will? I really had to consider that. I didn't 16 just say -- I didn't do it lightly. I was very careful 17 as I went downstairs, because I felt like I had started 18 this procedure for the lady and it was being stopped 19 down there. 20 I made an effort. I explained to the deputy 21 judge in charge that I thought what she was doing was 22 improper. I felt like that was as far as I needed to 23 go. I think that if Judge Jones-Glover doesn't have a 24 good enough relationship with her deputy that the two of 25 them could express my concern, I couldn't get into that. 0067 1 I just didn't feel like it was my place to get into 2 that. I didn't keep following up and pushing. I didn't 3 even know what had happened until much later. I didn't 4 know what the outcome was. I expressed my concern. I 5 stated my opinion. I felt like that was as far as I 6 should go. 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any other questions for 8 Judge Williams? There being none, if you would, Judge 9 Williams, have a seat back there. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Let me just say, I 11 have chosen to keep serving. Once I'm retired, I'm 12 going to be one of your chief servants. Y'all know what 13 a bargain you get, but I enjoy what I do. So I'm going 14 to keep right on serving. 15 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, sir. 16 (Witness excused.) 17 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: If you would, Judge 18 Glover, if you would return to your seat. 19 PANDORA JONES-GLOVER, being previously duly 20 sworn, testified as follows: 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: At this time I would open 22 the floor for any questions the Commission might have of 23 Judge Glover. 24 PROF. FREEMAN: I have one. 25 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, sir. 0068 1 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 2 Q Judge, I'm looking at the witness affidavit 3 that Loxie Rael -- did I pronounce that right, Rael? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q -- prepared. And an issue here is whether or 6 not the woman who needed the conservatorship could 7 launch the process by herself or whether she needed an 8 attorney. And according to Ms. Rael, Judge Williams 9 wanted to know, quote, why we required an attorney to 10 file the conservatorship proceedings. He goes on to 11 say, quote, I explained -- and this is Ms. Rael -- that 12 it was the Court's practice for an attorney to file the 13 pleadings. In other words, to launch a conservatorship 14 proceeding, the person who wants to be appointed would 15 need an attorney to get that going. Is that what you're 16 saying here? 17 A My policy is pretty much that I encourage -- 18 well, first and foremost, my staff members are not 19 attorneys. 20 Q I understand. 21 A So I discourage them from rendering any legal 22 advice because of the liability I could potentially 23 face. 24 Q I'm with you on that. 25 A So I encourage them to refer anyone that comes 0069 1 to my office with a contested litigation matter, to 2 refer them to an attorney. 3 Now, Ms. Coker presented herself to my office 4 with an attorney that did not represent her. After some 5 procedural instruction from Ms. Rael, she seemed 6 confused about the process. So I feel that Ms. Rael was 7 appropriate in referring her to an attorney because I 8 think that as a public official, as a lawyer and as a 9 judge, I have -- I'm in a bit of a catch-22. I'm here 10 to provide service, but then the ethical rules prohibit 11 me from ex parte communication or doing anything that 12 would give one party tactical or procedural advantage 13 over other parties. 14 Q I'm with you a hundred percent. But here is 15 my question: This was, first of all, an uncontested 16 proceeding. It wasn't contested. 17 A May I respond? 18 Q As I understand it, the settlement had gone 19 down and it's just a matter of formalizing the 20 paperwork. But then it says it was the Court's practice 21 for an attorney to file the pleadings. 22 And my question is, do you need -- is it your 23 policy or practice in your court, for there to be a 24 conservatorship, you need to have a lawyer? And if so, 25 what is the authority for that, Constitution or statute? 0070 1 A Constitutionally, you have the right to 2 represent yourself, Constitutionally. My practice has 3 been that if they are unable to execute the documents 4 without legal assistance from me or my staff, they may 5 do so. If they cannot, because of the liability that I 6 could potentially face, then I encourage them to seek 7 representation by an attorney. 8 Q Last question, and I won't bother you further. 9 But what is your basis for believing that Ms. Coker was 10 unable, had she been furnished the documentation, to 11 complete it? 12 A Oh, I don't have a basis for believing that at 13 all. Actually, Ms. Coker was furnished with the 14 paperwork. My policy, I will say, I have never refused 15 anybody paperwork. That has never been my policy. In 16 fact, I created the first Probate Court website in 17 Orangeburg County where they can access forms. Forms 18 are also available in person in my office. So I take 19 issue with that. I have never refused anyone paperwork. 20 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts. 21 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 22 Q Well, if you've never refused anybody any 23 paperwork, why was she refused the paperwork? 24 A As the complaint stated, I was actually giving 25 birth to my son on that day. For my staff -- 0071 1 Q Well, your number one assistant said the 2 judge -- 3 A That's what I was saying. I was trying to 4 complete my statement. I never instructed anyone in my 5 office -- I never left specific instructions for anyone 6 to refuse any paperwork. And it wouldn't make any sense 7 because I make them available in my office and I make 8 them available on line. I never ever instructed anyone 9 on my staff to refuse paperwork to the public at large. 10 Q You stated a few minutes ago it's your policy. 11 And as the previous questionnaire asked you, was it the 12 law or was it your policy that denied this lady the 13 access to the judicial system? 14 A Well, I'd like to explain. I never denied her 15 access to the judicial system. When I say that it's my 16 policy to encourage anyone that presents with a 17 contested litigation matter -- and at the time that she 18 presented, because as I said, I was not there, she 19 presented with an attorney that did not represent her 20 interests. She did not understand the proceedings. 21 I guess I'll just back it up for those of you 22 that don't practice in the probate area. In order to 23 have an appointment of conservatorship, the statute 24 provides that you have to have notice and you have to 25 have a hearing. You have to provide notice to any 0072 1 interested persons. In that instance, it was the father 2 of the child. I don't know his position. I don't know 3 if he would have been in opposition to it. That I don't 4 know. 5 I never had any contact with Ms. Coker because 6 I didn't know who she was. She never returned to my 7 office. I realized that she was a county employee when 8 I received a fax of her initial complaint. In the 9 initial complaint she never alleged that she was refused 10 any documents. I never refused this woman documents. I 11 never spoke to her. 12 In response to a question that was asked of 13 Judge Williams, I contacted his office in hopes that we 14 could discuss the matter. I'd be happy to entertain any 15 suggestions he had in resolving Ms. Coker's matter, but 16 I wasn't even given the courtesy of a return call from 17 my colleague. 18 Q Okay. How long were you on maternity leave? 19 A Six weeks. 20 Q And how did your office operate for those six 21 weeks? Did they have any hearings? 22 A I'll be happy to address that. We took all 23 matters into consideration. If I had an emergency 24 hearing that arose, my colleagues, other probate judges 25 throughout the state presided over matters for me. 0073 1 Especially with commitment hearings I have on 2 conservatorship, I think it was a conservatorship or 3 guardianship, the probate judge in Barnwell presided 4 over that matter for me. So I did not leave my 5 office -- 6 Q Do you have an assistant probate judge? 7 A No, I don't. I do not have an associate 8 probate judge. At the time -- I'm sure you all know 9 that my office is funded by Orangeburg County. At the 10 time they would not fund the position. So I have a 11 deputy that I appoint in my absence. 12 Q You didn't have that -- that deputy, do they 13 have the responsibility of being able to handle matters 14 in your absence? 15 A Yes, there are certain matters that she 16 handles in my absence. But the appointing of a 17 conservatorship, she would not have handled. I would 18 have noticed the other probate judge as I did in the 19 other case. 20 Q But she indicated that your policy was not to 21 give any papers or any applications out without an 22 attorney; is that right? 23 A That is not a correct assessment of my policy 24 or her -- if you review her -- 25 Q What is your policy today? If I came into 0074 1 your office to file for conservatorship or services in 2 your office, would they be able to get the application 3 or the paperwork in the office or would they have to 4 go -- 5 A Certainly, they're welcome to have the 6 paperwork. Whether or not they can execute the -- I 7 would tell them what they need procedurally, a civil 8 summons, a petition and a filing fee. If they're able 9 to do that, they're certainly welcome to file it. 10 Q The problem is this lady was never given the 11 paperwork. 12 A She was given the paperwork. 13 Q Why did she have to wait until the child was 14 18 years of age? 15 A Why she chose to wait until June, I have no 16 idea, but she was given the paperwork. She chose not to 17 file it. 18 Q When did she get the paperwork? 19 A She got the paperwork on the same day, 20 December 6th. 21 Q Same day she came down with the judge? 22 A She did. She did not file the paperwork, but 23 she did get the paperwork. Now, she waited until June, 24 until her child reached the age of 18, but she never 25 came back to my office. 0075 1 BY REP. MACK: 2 Q My original question was, from your 3 perspective looking back now, was there a breakdown in 4 staff or did the staff do exactly what you wanted them 5 to do? 6 A Well, in talking to my staff, and I talked to 7 them in detail because I was not there, I don't know if 8 they could have explained something to her a little bit 9 more. But they told me that they explained to her she 10 needed a civil summons, the petition, the filing fee, 11 and said she had some questions about the appointment of 12 a guardian ad litem. That is an attorney that we 13 appoint to represent the interests of a minor. This is 14 all in the statute. I don't know if as legislators you 15 all want to review the statute and maybe there's 16 something we can do so that the process doesn't have to 17 be the way it is. I don't know. 18 Q So your position is that the staff acted 19 correctly. And the other point that you mentioned to 20 Senator Knotts, you're saying that the paperwork was in 21 fact given. So that's really the point of contention. 22 You're saying the paperwork was given? 23 A The paperwork was given, yes, sir. 24 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator McConnell. 25 SENATOR McCONNELL: Mr. Chairman, I have a few 0076 1 questions. 2 BY SENATOR McCONNELL: 3 Q I went back and looked at the affidavits and 4 I'm concerned about what I hear. From this standpoint, 5 the lady went down there on her own the first time. She 6 was apparently denied by your office the forms. 7 Otherwise, she would have not gone back to a judge, 8 another judge, and told him that she couldn't get the 9 forms and she had to have a lawyer. 10 Now, the second thing that is uncontroverted 11 is the judge came to your office and spoke to your 12 staff. According to his testimony, he was initially 13 told this was the policy. He asked to see the deputy, 14 your deputy judge. He then saw a deputy judge who 15 apparently, unless you can present me some evidence to 16 the contrary, told this sitting circuit judge the same 17 thing: A, you've got to have an attorney; and B, then 18 added the caveat, there will be no hearings on this 19 until she returns from maternity leave. That I gleaned 20 from you. 21 The testimony, I think, is clear that the lady 22 was given the forms, but the instructions were not 23 left -- were not changed, which means she left your 24 office, A, with an understanding she had to have an 25 attorney, and B, she wasn't going to get her case heard 0077 1 until you came back from maternity leave. 2 Now, that's my understanding of the testimony 3 today. You've indicated and the judge indicated that 4 you called his office. First I'd like to know 5 specifically why you called his office. 6 A Because I heard that he was at my office and 7 there was a situation that took place, and I wanted to 8 call him to see if we could resolve it. I wanted to 9 know what his rendition of the facts were, because of 10 course I'm talking to my staff, and I wanted to get his 11 side of the case. I thought that we could put our heads 12 together and come up with a way of resolving Ms. Coker's 13 situation. I had no idea that he would just ignore my 14 call. 15 Q Now, when you made that call, what was your 16 understanding of the facts from your staff? I'm 17 interested in what your staff told you and what you 18 acted on. 19 A My staff told me that Judge Williams came 20 down, very unprofessional, very irate, demanding that 21 they do certain things, demanding that Ms. Rael preside 22 over a hearing that day to have Ms. Coker appointed as 23 guardianship. I called him because I wanted to get to 24 the bottom of it and I wanted to resolve the issue. 25 That's the reason why I called him. 0078 1 Q Did your staff at that time tell you that they 2 had represented to the judge that she had to have a 3 lawyer? 4 A Did they tell me that they represented that 5 she had to have a lawyer? Yes. 6 Q All right. Did they further tell you that 7 they informed the judge that there would not be a 8 hearing until you came back from maternity leave? 9 A They told me that, but I believe that that was 10 taken out of context. I believe that -- you have to 11 have your notice requirements. Whenever someone files a 12 summons and complaint against anybody, the respondent 13 has 30 days to respond. In 30 days, I would have been 14 back. If you are able to obtain waivers, then we could 15 have a hearing. You can sort of short-circuit the 16 process if you get waivers of notice and you get 17 acceptance of services. None of that was discussed. 18 That's why I'm saying if I would have had an 19 opportunity to talk and discuss these matters with Judge 20 Williams and Ms. Coker, perhaps there was some way we 21 could have gotten around it. By ignoring my call and 22 Ms. Coker not returning to my office did not help to 23 resolve the situation. I did not have any contact 24 information for her. But you do have 30 days to respond 25 to any complaint that is filed against you. 0079 1 Q Now, my question to you is why would your 2 staff on that day inform both a member of the public and 3 a judge that they've got to have an attorney to file the 4 papers in your court? Where did that policy come from? 5 A The policy comes from -- the rationale behind 6 my policy is that if they are unable to execute the 7 paperwork, and you have to assist them in executing any 8 type of litigation that could give them an advantage 9 over someone else, don't do it because of the liability 10 that we could possibly face. My clerks are not lawyers. 11 And I just want to address what I think the 12 issue was. I sincerely believe that Ms. Coker and Judge 13 Williams were upset because Ms. Coker would not have 14 been appointed conservator that day. The rules provide 15 that a conservator is appointed after notice and after a 16 hearing. You have to have a guardian ad litem appointed 17 to conduct their own independent investigation. They 18 have to make a report to the Court. I have to swear the 19 individual, place them under oath, ask them questions to 20 determine whether or not they eligible for 21 conservatorship and to determine whether or not they are 22 suitable to serve in that capacity. 23 As to whether or not my office was accessible, 24 I went to great lengths because I knew I was going to be 25 out because I was expecting for nine months. I met with 0080 1 the members of the Bar, I announced that I was going to 2 be out, I encouraged them to schedule their hearings. I 3 just don't see what else I could have done. I made 4 arrangements with other probate judges to handle matters 5 in my absence. They graciously took care of those 6 matters for me. My office was totally covered. There 7 was no break in anything. 8 Q The question I have for you is if your policy 9 was as you indicated, to require a lawyer to fill out 10 those forms if they were unable to fill them out, how 11 would your staff know whether or not she was capable of 12 filling out those forms until she was given those forms 13 and given a fair opportunity to file them? 14 A She was given the forms. She chose not to 15 file them, but she was given the forms. 16 Q She did not get the forms, isn't it correct, 17 from the clerk at the font desk? It took a judge to 18 access a deputy judge in order to get those forms? 19 A She received the forms from Ms. Rael. 20 Q The deputy judge? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Well, I would tell you and what I'm concerned 23 about in your testimony is your lack of concern about 24 the access of your office to the public, when your 25 clerks apparently did not give out the form until a 0081 1 deputy judge is accessed. Have you attempted to correct 2 the communications in that office in light of all that? 3 A Certainly. Any time there's a complaint 4 filed, I like to address it because I want us to be able 5 to provide accurate professional service to the 6 community at large. But I beg to differ with your 7 assessment. I questioned everybody in the office. They 8 all denied refusing the forms to Ms. Coker. I asked 9 them and they said that they did not deny it. 10 Basically what happens, if there is a 11 litigation matter, they refer those individuals to our 12 litigation supervisor. And you will see in Ms. Tucker's 13 affidavit that she received a call. She spoke with an 14 attorney that didn't represent Ms. Coker but accompanied 15 Ms. Coker to the office. So I feel that they took the 16 necessary steps, but they did not deny her any forms. 17 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, sir. 19 BY SENATOR FORD: 20 Q Did you testify earlier that you could get the 21 forms on line? 22 A The form are on line because of a website that 23 I have created. The forms are also available in my 24 office. I have tried to make my office user-friendly. 25 So I don't want anyone to leave with the perception that 0082 1 I denied forms. 2 Q When did you create the website, before this 3 incident or after? 4 A The website was created long before the 5 incident. 6 SENATOR FORD: Senator McConnell, wouldn't 7 that prove she was trying to make her office accessible 8 to the public if they could get them on line? 9 SENATOR McCONNELL: Senator, I compliment her 10 on making them available on line. 11 I've expressed to you my concern with the 12 office policy, the directives to the general public, and 13 the need to go to a deputy judge in order to get those 14 forms. There's some concern, at least on my part, about 15 the supervision of that staff. 16 BY SENATOR FORD: 17 Q Did your staff inform you that it took a 18 deputy judge to get the forms to this individual? 19 A No, they didn't tell me that. I'm hearing 20 that when I inquired about what happened. What I'm 21 saying is that my staff didn't refuse. I don't know if 22 they were asked. They said that they never refused 23 anybody any forms. 24 Q The lady came to your staff alone, right, the 25 first time? 0083 1 A I think she came with an attorney that didn't 2 represent her. 3 Q So do you know at that time, did they ask for 4 the forms? 5 A I'm assuming that they came downstairs and 6 asked to be appointed as conservators. They were 7 probably told at that time that they should seek the 8 advice of an attorney. So if they asked for -- I don't 9 know at what point the forms were asked for, but I know 10 that when they were asked for they were not refused. 11 Q When you called the judge on the phone, did 12 you ask him to return a call to you? 13 A Of course. 14 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts. 15 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 16 Q One final question. You keep referring to 17 policy, your policy, your office policy. Tell me where 18 your policy is backed up by either the law, statute or 19 the Constitution. And if there is a law on the books 20 that backs up your policy or Constitution. 21 A There is no law on the books. I just want to 22 clarify my policy. I do not -- you don't have to have 23 an attorney if you're able to execute the documents 24 yourself. But the ethical rules -- I don't know what 25 the canon number is, but I am prohibited from entering 0084 1 ex parte communication that will give one party 2 procedural advantage over the other. By virtue of them 3 being my staff members, they are required to follow the 4 same rules that I am. 5 Q Well, your policy is basically something that 6 you set in place with no backup of the statute or the 7 Constitution. And had that lady, when she first came 8 into your office, been given the forms to fill out and 9 if she filled them out right and filed them, that's 10 fine, but she should have been given the form. And then 11 at that point in time your office could have denied them 12 for not being able to be filled out right or whatever. 13 But there is nothing in the statute or the Constitution 14 that backs up your policy of not giving out forms. 15 A I just want to clear up. I do not deny forms. 16 People file documents in my court -- 17 Q Why did she go back to the judge without 18 forms? 19 A I can only assume that she went upstairs 20 because she was told that she would not be appointed 21 that day. She didn't appreciate being told that you 22 have to have a hearing, all parties have to be notified 23 and you have to appoint a guardian ad litem, and if you 24 are unable to execute the documents yourself, maybe you 25 should seek the advice of an attorney. 0085 1 Q So in your own statement and in the affidavit 2 provided, it says that your staff stated to her that 3 even if she filled out the forms, that a hearing 4 wouldn't be granted until you came back. Now, you had 5 said that other probate judges in other counties held 6 these hearings for you if needed be while you were on 7 maternity leave. 8 A That's correct. 9 Q So evidently the lady was discouraged, being 10 discouraged by your staff by, number one, not being able 11 to get the forms, number two, being told that even if 12 she filled out the forms, there wouldn't be a hearing 13 until you got back because you were the only one who 14 could do it. Didn't indicate they would have to set up 15 a hearing or ask you to set up a hearing for that person 16 or be accommodative to that person. And there's 17 actually no statute to back up or Constitutional 18 question to back up your policy. You know, you can't 19 have a policy unless you've got backup. 20 A Yes, sir. I'd just like to clear up once 21 again. The statements that you're talking about are not 22 written by me. I never said -- 23 Q Where did they come from? 24 A The statement that she could not -- 25 Q Your policy. 0086 1 A I thought you were talking about her statement 2 that she could not be serviced until I returned. 3 Q Yeah. 4 A I already said that that is taken out of 5 context because you have to have 30 days to respond. I 6 had another conservatorship or guardianship appointed by 7 a judge out of Barnwell. We had several commitment 8 hearings that my colleagues presided over. But had she 9 not filed the waiver, you would not have the hearing 10 before 30 days. And yes, by that time I would have 11 returned. I have said that that statement was taken out 12 of context, obviously. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We have Professor Freeman 14 and then Mr. Harrell. 15 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 16 Q Just quickly. As of December of '07, is it 17 true, as Ms. Rael says, it was the Court's practice for 18 an attorney to file pleadings for a conservatorship? 19 A Unless they could file them themselves, yes, 20 sir. That's in contested litigation matters. 21 Q Was this a contested litigation matter? 22 A She presented herself with an attorney that 23 did not represent her, so I would say yes. 24 Q Even though it was a consensual settlement? 25 A The settlement itself was probably consensual. 0087 1 I don't know. That was in Judge Williams' court. In my 2 court you have to notify all interested persons. I 3 don't know the position of the father. 4 Q If the same thing happened again today, and 5 she presented herself to Ms. Rael, would it still be the 6 Court's practice in the same circumstances to require an 7 attorney to file the pleadings? 8 A What I would do if it happened today, I would 9 instruct my staff to just accept whatever filings come 10 in. If then if the summons and filing fee don't follow, 11 we would simply write them and let them know that these 12 are the requirements. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Representative Clemmons. 14 REP. CLEMMONS: Thank you, Judge. 15 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 16 Q Did, in fact, Ms. Rael call you the day of 17 this event on December the 6th? 18 A She did not because that was actually the day 19 that I gave birth and I was actually -- this might be 20 too much information, but I had my birth by Caesarean, 21 so I was in no position to talk to her on that day. 22 Q I'm sure you weren't. I'm confused because 23 she states in her affidavit that she spoke with you 24 after the lady had been refused. 25 A I don't know -- she is here to maybe clear 0088 1 that up, but I did not talk to her that day. 2 Q And she states that she could file her 3 petition, but that she still needed the summons and that 4 an attorney should file the summons. Was that indeed 5 your policy, that an attorney should file the summons? 6 A As I stated, that would be my policy if they 7 are unable to file them themselves. There are some 8 people that can file summons themselves. In that case, 9 we can preside over the hearing. 10 Q The summons itself is a standard form 11 document, is it not? 12 A It is. The purpose of the summons is to 13 initiate the action and inform anyone, the respondents, 14 that they have a certain amount of time to respond. 15 Q Did your office provide a copy of that form 16 summons? 17 A No, we don't have summonses. 18 REP. CLEMMONS: Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Mr. Harrell. 20 BY MR. HARRELL: 21 Q Judge, I think that I understand your policy, 22 but let me make sure I've got it right. Somebody comes 23 into your office, and the forms are there, and they want 24 the forms. Your office, you're telling the Committee, 25 will give them the forms, right? 0089 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q But then once they ask a question about how to 3 fill them out, that triggers their instructions to tell 4 them to go get a lawyer before they can do anything 5 else? 6 A I want to clarify that. If you have an 7 unrepresented personal representative and they want to 8 fill out the petition to be appointed for a person, we 9 actually have workshops, weekly workshops where I 10 explain to them the forms. We have closing workshops 11 where my clerks instruct them on completing the forms. 12 In those cases there is no contest, no litigation. 13 But when you're dealing with a contested 14 matter, I think that we would go across the line if they 15 were to draft a summons in a complaint and have someone 16 to respond to. 17 Q If they don't ask any questions about the 18 forms, then they can fill them out and file them 19 themselves? 20 A Certainly, certainly. 21 Q But if they ask a question about the form, 22 then somebody on your staff at that point makes a 23 determination that they have to have a lawyer? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And that somebody else is not you? 0090 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Q The person that then tells them, because they 3 have asked a question, that they have to get a lawyer is 4 not you, the judge? 5 A For the most part I have the clerks and 6 everyone else up front in place to assist the customers. 7 If they want to speak with me, I'll talk with them. 8 Q So the policy of once a litigant asks a 9 question requiring them then at that point to get a 10 lawyer is a policy that you have come up with for the 11 operation of your court? 12 A No, it was actually the policy that was in 13 place, but I have continued it since I was appointed. 14 Q And as long as they're silent and they fill 15 out the forms, even if they're wrong, they can do it 16 without a lawyer? 17 A Yes. And we send them a checklist of 18 additional items that are needed. 19 Q Do they know if they ask a question, they're 20 going to have to go find an attorney? 21 A It just depends. Like I said, if it's 22 uncontested and they want to know what goes here on an 23 application, that's why the clerks are there. But I 24 don't want my clerks to get in the position to render 25 legal advice that would give an advantage when there's 0091 1 litigation pending. 2 Q If they say -- if your staff says, "Okay, I 3 can't answer those questions. You have to go get a 4 lawyer for that," can they then decide they don't want 5 to get a lawyer, they'll just take their best shot at 6 it, fill it out and file it, or do you require a lawyer 7 once they've asked a question? 8 A No. If they want to do it on their own, if 9 they don't want to heed the advice on talking with an 10 attorney, they have a Constitutional right to do that. 11 Q Thank you, Judge. 12 A You're welcome. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any further questions? 14 There are none. We will ask the judge to take a seat 15 back where you were and we will call up the witness, 16 Ms. Rael. 17 (Witness excused.) 18 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Before I swear you in -- 19 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, we have several 20 affidavits that have been submitted in this case, one 21 from the pro se litigant in this matter, which was 22 Kimberly J. Coker, one from Ms. Loxie L. Rael, Clerk of 23 Probate Court in Orangeburg County, and one from a 24 Veronica Tucker, who is another staff member of the 25 Orangeburg County Probate Court. Those updates have all 0092 1 been provided to the Commission members prior to today, 2 and I would ask that those be submitted into the record 3 at this time. 4 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Is there any objection to 5 submitting those affidavits into the record? Hearing 6 none, it will be done at this point in the transcript. 7 (Affidavit of Kimberly J. Coker marked JMSC 8 Exhibit Number 31, for identification.) 9 (Affidavit of Loxie L. Rael marked JMSC 10 Exhibit Number 32, for identification.) 11 (Affidavit of Veronica Tucker marked JMSC 12 Exhibit Number 33, for identification.) 13 MR. WRIGHT: Good morning, Ms. Rael. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Let me swear you in. 16 LOXIE L. RAEL, being first duly sworn, 17 testified as follows: 18 EXAMINATION 19 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Would you answer any 20 questions that our counsel have for you? 21 BY MR. WRIGHT: 22 Q Ms. Rael, could you please briefly describe to 23 the Commission your recollection of the events regarding 24 Mr. Williams' complaint, particularly things he may have 25 added in addition to the testimony as set forth in your 0093 1 affidavit? 2 A Yes, sir. When I returned from lunch, I was 3 met by Ms. Coker and some others in the hallway, 4 indicating -- I can't remember verbatim what was said, 5 but basically she told me that a settlement -- they had 6 a minor settlement preceding a check that they needed a 7 conservatorship appointed for her son. 8 And she asked me the procedure, and I said -- 9 I think she had already been in the office to get the 10 procedure, and so I reiterated what they told her. We 11 required an attorney to file a summons, petition for 12 conservatorship appointment, and it's $150 filing fee. 13 And I think she was upset that -- she said they couldn't 14 afford an attorney. She didn't have an attorney. I 15 think the attorney that was with her just was the 16 attorney for the insurance company that represented -- 17 the insurance company in the Circuit Court hearing. 18 From there I went into the office. A few 19 minutes later, I'm not sure how long, one of the staff 20 members up front called me, because my office is in the 21 back of the floor, and stated that Judge Williams was 22 there, that he wanted to speak with me. So I met him -- 23 I was on my way up front, and we met in the records 24 room. And he was very upset that this person couldn't 25 get appointed. I can't remember, like I said, verbatim 0094 1 what was said. I'm not sure whether I told him or some 2 of the other staff members indicated that the judge was 3 on maternity leave. And he wanted to know who was in 4 charge of the office. I said, "I'm the Clerk of Court 5 and I was appointed deputy, but only to sign certain 6 documents as instructed by the judge" or to hear certain 7 mental cases previously, but I wasn't doing those any 8 longer at that time. And I informed him we didn't have 9 an associate judge, because I think he questioned that 10 issue. 11 But I think from there -- I'm sorry. I'm 12 really nervous. 13 PROF. FREEMAN: Do you want to look at your 14 affidavit (handing)? 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 At that time it was the Court's practice, as 17 the judge's predecessor, Vivian Ross-Bennett, 18 implemented the procedure to have an attorney file the 19 summons and petition. And -- I'm sorry, y'all. And I 20 think Judge Williams' concern was that she couldn't file 21 it pro se at that time. And he asked me for the forms. 22 And I said, "Well, sure, I'll gladly give her 23 the form." That was no problem. But as far as the 24 forms go, we just had the conservatorship petition. I 25 didn't have the summons to give her. And that's -- I 0095 1 just thought that's normally what an attorney would 2 draft, a civil summons. And as Judge stated earlier, 3 normally you would serve it and all parties would have 4 30 days to answer. And by then she'd probably be back 5 off maternity leave. 6 But I did further -- because he questioned 7 that issue. I said, but what we would probably do is, 8 because usually when a judge is out and a hearing needs 9 to be held, we could always write Court Administration 10 and ask them to appoint a special probate judge to sit 11 in and hear the matter, if they got all their paperwork 12 together in time before she returned. We could do that 13 and I remember telling him that. But I didn't refuse 14 any forms, because once he asked me for the form, I gave 15 it to her. 16 And then from then -- I think the judge was a 17 little irate, and he instructed Ms. Coker to file her 18 petition, and that if we didn't let her file that 19 petition, to let him know because then he would contact 20 the Supreme Court. And then he left. 21 And so once I gave her the petition, I think 22 she went out in the hallway and filled it out and 23 brought it back. I was still a little concerned, and I 24 told her, well -- she said, "I want to file this 25 petition." 0096 1 I said, "Well, where is your summons? You 2 still don't have the summons. I'm not allowed to accept 3 the petition without the summons and, of course, the 4 fee." And I said, but what I will do, since all of this 5 is -- since it was kind of heated, what we would do is I 6 will just accept the petition. I will clock it in, I 7 told her, but I couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't be 8 unclocked and returned after speaking with the judge and 9 going over it to see if it was okay for me to have 10 accepted it since we didn't have the summons and the 11 attorney didn't file it. 12 So at that point she -- I think she just got 13 frustrated and they left with her petition. 14 BY MR. WRIGHT: 15 Q Ms. Rael, can you tell the Commission what 16 your understanding of the policy was with respect to 17 providing forms to pro se litigants? 18 A The Court's policy, as far as -- as long as 19 I've been there, is if they ask for a form, we give it 20 to them. I don't recall ever denying anyone a form. 21 And when the judge asked me, by the time he asked me for 22 the form, I gave it to her. I can't recall right now 23 whether I printed it off the computer or if I had the 24 old blue form. It used to be a trifold blue form. I 25 remember giving her a form. That was no problem. I 0097 1 didn't have a problem with that, but I didn't have a 2 summons to give her. 3 Q Ms. Rael, can you tell the Commission also 4 what the cost would have been with respect to asking the 5 pro se litigant or recommending that they find 6 representation in the matter? 7 A At that time we required an attorney to 8 represent them. Now, since then we strongly recommend 9 that they get legal advice, you know, if they have 10 trouble completing the summons and petition and so 11 forth. 12 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I don't have any 13 further questions. 14 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any member of the 15 Commission have any questions for Ms. Rael? Senator 16 Knotts. 17 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 18 Q So when was the policy changed from requiring 19 them to have an attorney to strongly recommending them 20 to have an attorney? After this incident? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Representative Clemmons. 23 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 24 Q As far as the summons form is concerned, do 25 you make those available in your office? 0098 1 A No, sir, we don't have those. I understand 2 maybe the Clerk of Courts Office has a summons in their 3 office, but I don't know how it really reads. A lot of 4 times when attorneys file a summons, they draft their 5 own. 6 Q Did you provide the applicant with the names 7 of attorneys that she would speak to? 8 A I don't recall if I did at that time or not, 9 but we do have a list and we normally give those out. 10 We've had that for quite some time. 11 Q I noted in your affidavit that you had stated 12 that you told the applicant there was no guarantee that 13 the petition would not be returned after speaking with 14 Judge Jones-Glover. When did you, in fact, speak with 15 Judge Glover with respect to that? 16 A Yeah, but I told her that before I spoke with 17 her, because she didn't have a summons and all the 18 paperwork correct. I'm thinking maybe it might have 19 been the next day, maybe a couple days after. I'm not 20 really sure when. 21 Q Did you take the applicant's contact 22 information so that Judge Glover could have follow-up 23 with that? 24 A No, sir, but I was informed that it was -- of 25 who she was then and that, I think, she worked for the 0099 1 Auditor's Office. 2 Q Did you pass that information on to Judge 3 Jones-Glover? 4 A I'm sure I must have. I just don't recall it 5 now. 6 REP. CLEMMONS: Thank you. That's all. 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator McConnell. 8 BY SENATOR McCONNELL: 9 Q I want to follow up on the question so I make 10 sure I understand all the facts. You did inform the 11 judge about your conversation with Judge Williams? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Did you inform the judge as to what you told 14 Judge Williams -- 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q -- was the policy? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Is there any doubt in your mind that Judge 19 Glover didn't understand -- let me put it this way: To 20 the best of your recollection, did you tell her all that 21 went on in the conversation -- 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q -- with Judge Williams? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And subsequently, y'all learned who the 0100 1 identity of this lady was, correct? 2 A Uh-huh. Well, she told me when I met her in 3 the hallway. 4 Q Now, you said y'all have changed your policy 5 now regarding people without a lawyer? 6 A Well, the policy is the same. We just 7 strongly recommend that they have -- they get legal 8 assistance. And if -- I guess if they -- I'm not the 9 litigation supervisor, so I don't handle that usually. 10 But if they would file the summons and petition and all 11 the procedural forms, then I'm thinking now we would, as 12 long as they could give notice, proof of service, give 13 proper notice, that they have 30 days to answer, and all 14 of these things are done according to law, we would 15 accept it. 16 Q Before you said you would give them the forms, 17 except the summons, correct? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Now when you give them the forms, do you give 20 them a summons form? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q So they still can't get from your office the 23 documents to represent themselves? 24 A Right, because, see, that's not a Probate 25 Court-mandated form. We just give them the mandated 0101 1 forms, which is the petition to conservator-- well, in 2 this case petition for conservatorship, not the summons. 3 Q What do you tell them? Do you tell them where 4 to go get a form? I'm trying to understand your policy. 5 A No, because it has to be drafted, the way I 6 understand, the way an attorney would draft a summons. 7 Q So your policy then still is an attorney has 8 got to access this action? 9 A Well, unless they can figure out how to, I 10 guess, prepare a summons themselves. 11 Q When Judge Williams was in there, did you 12 indicate to him or to the potential litigant that the 13 case would not be heard until the judge returns? 14 A I believe I probably did. However, I do 15 remember thinking about that for a moment, and I did 16 explain to him that what we would probably do in that 17 situation, if it came ready for trial, if she got all 18 her documents ready for trial, before she returned we 19 could always write Court Administration to appoint a 20 special session to hear it. But that's going to take 21 time, too. 22 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any further questions, 24 anyone? If you would take a seat back over there, 25 Ms. Rael. 0102 1 (Witness excused.) 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Judge Glover, if you would 3 have a seat back. I will remind you you remain under 4 oath. 5 PANDORA JONES-GLOVER, being previously duly 6 sworn, testified as follows: 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Does any member -- would 8 you like to explain anything that you heard or add 9 anything to it or has everything been pretty much said? 10 THE WITNESS: Basically, you know, we don't 11 deny forms. My courtroom was accessible even during 12 maternity leave. I took measures to make sure things 13 ran smoothly while I was out. 14 If Ms. Coker had submitted the appropriate 15 documents, she would have been made conservator. I did 16 not know -- I still don't know who she is. I realized 17 that she was employed with Orangeburg County when I 18 received the complaint, the initial complaint that she 19 filed. At that time I didn't feel it was appropriate to 20 contact her, but I never knew who she was. 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Professor Freeman. 22 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 23 Q If I understand correctly, your office has a 24 form conservatorship pleading or petition? 25 A Yes, sir, we do. 0103 1 Q Would you plug in the name of the petitioner, 2 the name of the respondent, and then somebody would sign 3 it? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What would be different with the summons with 6 having the name of the petitioner, name of respondent, 7 and somebody to sign with the verbiage being the form 8 verbiage for a summons? How difficult would it be to do 9 that form? 10 A To draft the summons? It probably isn't very 11 difficult. They simply have to notify the respondent 12 that an action is pending, and then they have 30 days to 13 respond. That's pretty much all the summons is, but we 14 don't have a form. 15 Q But you do have a form for a petition? 16 A Yes, sir, those are -- 17 Q Would it be hard as a public service to 18 develop a form like that? I'm just curious. 19 A It probably wouldn't be. 20 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Mr. Clemmons and again 21 Senator Knotts. 22 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 23 Q That really went to the root of my question. 24 I fully appreciate, having practiced in Probate Court in 25 Horry County, the fact that you're dealing with a 0104 1 conservatorship. It's certainly subject to a hearing 2 and cross-examination, and it's appropriate to have an 3 attorney involved. 4 But I've also seen a number of these cases, at 5 least in my county, where the conservator has been 6 appointed through a rather similar process where they do 7 make summons available in my county. I can't speak for 8 the other counties in the state, but a summons is, as 9 you know, a very easy form document. About the only 10 variable you have is the parties listed at the top. It 11 seems to me that that would have been a good service for 12 you to provide applicants in your office. I would 13 encourage you as a probate judge to consider that going 14 forward. 15 It just sounds to me like up to this time, 16 access for a litigant, at least in a conservatorship 17 matter, has been very difficult, if not impossible to 18 record. That causes me a great deal of pause. I would 19 highly encourage that you consider incorporation of 20 those simple form summons. Make them accessible. It 21 just sounds to me like your policy was a full employment 22 for lawyers policy in Orangeburg County. And I don't 23 think that meets the best means of justice for the 24 public. That would be a great concern to me. 25 A I do appreciate your comments and I will 0105 1 definitely consider drafting a form order summons for 2 them to fill in the blanks, as you've indicated. But 3 you did mention Horry County. There is really not much 4 uniformity in the Probate Courts throughout the state. 5 Actually, I took the liberty of conducting a little 6 survey to see who requires attorneys, to see who 7 requires a summons to initiate these type of actions, 8 and there's no uniformity across the board. But I will 9 definitely consider that. 10 REP. CLEMMONS: Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts. 12 SENATOR KNOTTS: My question got asked. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Ford. 14 SENATOR FORD: I wanted to say, you say her 15 court was some kind of employment for lawyers. The form 16 on the Internet, what does that mean? 17 REP. CLEMMONS: From the testimony I've heard 18 and the affidavits I've read, while they provide the 19 petition, they say in order to get a summons, you've got 20 to go to a lawyer to get a summons. 21 SENATOR FORD: On the Internet, what's that 22 form look like? 23 REP. CLEMMONS: I don't think we've heard 24 testimony that there's a summons on there. The summons 25 is what they were telling the applicant they had to go 0106 1 to a lawyer to have a summons drafted. 2 BY SENATOR FORD: 3 Q Can you explain that? Because I'm a layman. 4 I have no idea what he's talking about. 5 A Whenever you file an action against someone to 6 issue a summons, you're basically inviting the 7 respondents to reply to the Court within 30 days. That 8 form is normally drafted by an attorney because people, 9 I guess, don't know how to do it. If they are able to 10 draft them, I allow them to draft them. 11 Q How were they able to determine that she 12 wasn't able to draft them? How did they make that 13 determination? 14 A She didn't file it with her petition. 15 SENATOR FORD: But I don't understand. If 16 that's -- you see, we can't get in these people's minds. 17 If she didn't file the petition, what is the judge 18 supposed to do? 19 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Is that the last question? 20 SENATOR FORD: Yeah, but I'm confused about 21 something. There's something I'm missing. If she 22 didn't file them with the petition and she had that 23 right, what's it got to do with the judge? Can you tell 24 me? 25 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Well, the judge's office 0107 1 makes sure all the paperwork is in order. 2 BY SENATOR FORD: 3 Q Does your office make sure all the paperwork 4 was in order? 5 A I feel that my staff made sure the paperwork 6 was in order. Ms. Coker didn't have the requisite 7 paperwork and she ultimately chose not to file the 8 paperwork. I contacted Judge Williams, and I didn't 9 have any contact from him. 10 Q When were you informed about that? 11 A I'm going to say maybe a day or two after I 12 gave birth. I gave birth on the 6th. According to 13 Judge Williams' affidavit, I contacted him on the 12th. 14 I know I was discharged after four days. 15 Q But I'm talking about standard procedure. So 16 she come into your office, she's given one form that she 17 could fill out, and then the other form is called what? 18 A It's called a summons. 19 Q In the summons case, why did -- did your staff 20 inform her or try to help her with the summons or she 21 just left the office or what? 22 A I guess she became frustrated with the process 23 and she left. She didn't submit the summons or a filing 24 fee. 25 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Representative Mack. 0108 1 REP. MACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2 BY REP. MACK: 3 Q Judge Jones-Glover, looking back on 4 everything, can you think of anything in reflection that 5 you would change or do differently as relates to either 6 your staff or procedure or anything? And if so, how 7 would you frame it to move forward? 8 A I guess hind sight is 20/20. I guess that I 9 could make a form, a simple form available with blank 10 spaces for them to fill in the blanks for a summons. I 11 would just explain the rationale to my staff about not 12 giving legal advice. I would let them know that the 13 reason why I have a policy in place is because we don't 14 want to enter into ex parte communication. I could just 15 maybe reemphasize that to my staff and make a blank 16 summons form available in the front office on the wall 17 for them to pick up and take like other petitions or 18 applications. 19 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts? 20 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 21 Q Basically the problem here is you gave them 22 half of what they really needed, and then in order to go 23 and get it to finish the application, they would have to 24 go and hire an attorney, which is what y'all wanted them 25 to do to start with. So basically, if you would just 0109 1 simply fill out a simple summons that they could pick 2 up -- I mean, it's not that much. Like you said, it's 3 very simple -- and we wouldn't be here today. 4 A But I have no stake in trying to make people 5 pay attorneys, if that's what you're getting at. I do 6 have a list of all the attorneys at the front office. 7 Q Why did you change it after all this happened? 8 A I make available the legal services 9 information for those people that qualify. All of that 10 is at the front desk for when they come in. 11 What I did after this incident, whenever you 12 have a situation, you always want to meet with your 13 staff and see if there is something you can do 14 different. I am a public servant. I want to be there 15 to serve the general public at large. What I did with 16 my staff is I gave them explanation or I wanted to 17 ensure that they understood the policy behind -- the 18 rationale behind the policy is what I'm saying. 19 The rules have not changed. You have to fill 20 out the summons, filing fee, the petition. If you are 21 unable to do it, then you should consult with an 22 attorney because I don't want to be liable for legal 23 advice given by my staff. 24 Q I understand that. I admire you for that. 25 But the truth of the matter is if you want your office 0110 1 to be public-friendly, then why -- I mean, you knew that 2 they were getting just the application and not a form, a 3 summons. I mean, if you're so interested in the public 4 being -- having access to your office, why have you not 5 reviewed that since you've been a probate judge and 6 said, hey, there are some cases that don't require an 7 attorney, if it's a non-contested case -- 8 A Because -- 9 Q -- and make it easy access to the public? It 10 certainly would keep you from having more hearings and 11 more courtroom time. You could have a lot more cases if 12 there was more access-friendly. It's like going to a 13 restaurant and asking them for a glass of water and they 14 bring you half a glass. 15 A I do appreciate your suggestions, but you 16 never know which matters are contested unless you have 17 the waivers of acceptance of service at that time or if 18 someone relinquishes their right. 19 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman? 20 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, Senator, go right 21 ahead. 22 BY SENATOR FORD: 23 Q Can you name some of the things that you 24 implemented since you became probate judge of Orangeburg 25 County? 0111 1 A I'm very proud of the work that I've done. As 2 I stated, I implemented weekly workshops to deal with 3 unrepresented uncontested litigants. We have closing 4 workshops. The reason why I say unrepresented 5 uncontested litigants, is because if someone wants to be 6 appointed as conservatorship, they need to know how to 7 execute the documents. I explain their duties and 8 responsibilities, and I let them know what the Court 9 expects from them. 10 Q When are these workshops held? 11 A The workshops are held every Monday. We have 12 closing workshops twice a week. I have probate 13 workshops throughout the community. 14 Q And you do this yourself? 15 A The closing workshops, I now have my estate 16 clerks do those. Everything else I do myself. 17 Q You go out into the community and try to 18 educate people on probate matters? 19 A Of course. 20 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 21 Q Was this lady told that when she asked for the 22 form? 23 A Was she told about the workshops? 24 Q About the workshops or given any information? 25 If you don't know how to fill out the form, we have a 0112 1 workshop on Monday, and you can go in on Monday and they 2 will be more than glad to help you with that? Was she 3 told that? 4 A I don't believe that my staff told her to go 5 to the workshop on Monday. The workshop on Monday is 6 for personal representatives. She was seeking 7 appointment as a conservator. 8 Q Do you have a workshop for people with 9 uncontested cases involving matters like this? Do you 10 have a workshop for them? 11 A For conservatorships, I do not. 12 Q Why not? 13 A I have workshops in the community -- 14 Q Why not? 15 A Why don't I have a conservatorship workshop? 16 Q For people to fill out a form. 17 A I don't have a workshop for that specifically, 18 no. 19 Q Why? 20 A I just don't. 21 Q What's the difference in that and having a 22 workshop for something else? You talked about ex parte, 23 you know. Why not have it? 24 BY SENATOR FORD: 25 Q Do other probate judges in the state have 0113 1 these workshops? 2 A There are some of them that do implement the 3 workshops. 4 Q Are you talking about what he's talking about? 5 A I don't know. I don't know that all of them 6 have conservatorship workshops. 7 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 8 Q Some of them do, though, don't they? 9 A Conservatorships? I've never heard of that, 10 but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But I can't give 11 you an example 12 Q So you're telling me that anybody that walks 13 into a probate office in this state, in the same set of 14 circumstances that this lady came into y'all's office, 15 they would be denied? 16 A No. I'm actually telling you the opposite, 17 because I conducted a survey, and the practices are 18 different throughout the state. There are some counties 19 that require summons and some that do not. 20 BY SENATOR FORD: 21 Q Did you start this community involvement stuff 22 before or after this incident? 23 A Oh, no, I've done the community involvement 24 ever since I took office in 2004. 25 Q And you were elected by the people? 0114 1 A I was elected by the people in 2006, but I was 2 appointed by the Government in 2004. 3 SENATOR McCONNELL: Any further questions? 4 Counsel, I think, has a few closing comments. No other 5 witnesses, right? 6 MR. WRIGHT: No other witnesses. 7 BY MR. WRIGHT: 8 Q Judge Jones-Glover, I just have a few 9 housekeeping issues. Have you sought or received the 10 pledge of any legislator prior to this date? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 13 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 14 the outcome of your screening? 15 A I have not. 16 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 17 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 18 A I have not. 19 Q Have you contacted any members of the 20 Commission? 21 A I have not. 22 Q Do you understand that you are prohibited from 23 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 24 formal release of the Commission's report? 25 A Yes, sir. 0115 1 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 2 on pledging? 3 A Yes. 4 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of the penalties 5 of violating the pledging rules, that is, it is a 6 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the violator must be 7 fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 8 90 days? 9 A I am now. 10 Q I would note that the Lowcountry Citizens 11 Committee addressed the following eight criteria: 12 Constitutional Qualifications: Judge Jones-Glover meets 13 the Constitutional Qualifications for the judicial 14 position she seeks. 15 Ethical Fitness: Persons interviewed by the 16 committee indicated that Judge Jones-Glover is 17 considered ethical. 18 Professional and Academic Ability: The 19 committee gave Judge Jones-Glover an adequate rating in 20 this area. 21 Character: The committee reported that Judge 22 Jones-Glover's character is unquestionable. 23 Reputation: Judge Jones-Glover enjoys an 24 adequate reputation in the community and among her 25 peers. Questions were raised to the committee 0116 1 concerning Judge Jones-Glover's professional reputation 2 on the Probate Court bench. 3 Physical and Mental Health: There is evidence 4 that Judge Jones-Glover is physically and mentally 5 capable of performing the duties of a judge on the 6 Circuit Court. 7 Experience: The committee recognized Judge 8 Jones-Glover's adequate legal experience and judicial 9 experience. They noted that Judge Jones-Glover has 10 limited criminal experience and lacks civil experience. 11 However, they explained that she has practiced in the 12 probate arena. 13 Judicial Temperament: The committee gave 14 Judge Jones-Glover a good rating in this category. 15 However, the committee noted that her temperament was 16 questionable based on her dismissive and evasive answers 17 before the committee. 18 I would just note for the record that any 19 concerns raised during the investigation regarding the 20 candidate were incorporated into the questioning of the 21 candidate today. Mr. Chairman, I have no further 22 questions. 23 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. 24 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman, one quick 25 question. 0117 1 SENATOR McCONNELL: Yes, Senator. 2 BY SENATOR FORD: 3 Q There is a major backlog in South Carolina, 4 particularly in the Lowcountry. I know with Charleston 5 and Berkeley, there is a major, major backlog. What 6 would you do to implement some kind of policy to resolve 7 that if you are elected Circuit Court judge? 8 A I would use the current technology available. 9 We could do bond hearings, preliminary hearings via web 10 cam. I would reduce the mental health court, drug court 11 to try to take some -- refer those people to specialized 12 court. 13 Q What's a specialized court? 14 A Specialized court would be a drug court that 15 deals with offenders that have drug problems. They 16 could receive much needed treatment and so their charges 17 would be nol pros. Mental health court, same thing. 18 Q Do those exist in Orangeburg County? 19 A There is a juvenile special court in 20 Orangeburg County. I've applied for a grant for a 21 mental health court, but I have not received funding for 22 it, so we do not have it. 23 Q What kind of grant? State grant, federal 24 grant? 25 A I'd apply for a federal grant. And of course 0118 1 the County would match to a certain extent. 2 Q So what I'm trying to find out, you do have 3 community interests at heart? 4 A Certainly. I am an elected official. 5 Q Well, you've got to explain that to the 6 committee, because I don't want you leaving here with us 7 thinking that you're not in this for the public, that 8 you're not satisfying the public like you should. And 9 if you've done all these things, you better -- I think 10 you've got to convince the committee that you are in it 11 for the public. 12 A I feel that I've went to great lengths to make 13 my office accessible. One of my missions has been to 14 increase awareness. That is why I have articles in the 15 paper discussing probate issues. That's why I conduct 16 workshops throughout the community. I have the weekly 17 workshops that have never been implemented. And I 18 created the web page with answers to frequently asked 19 questions as well as for them to access probate forms on 20 line. 21 Q Do you go to churches in Orangeburg County -- 22 A Sure. 23 Q -- to have workshops? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 SENATOR McCONNELL: All right. Senator, do 0119 1 you have a follow-up question? 2 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 3 Q If elected to be a Circuit Court judge, when 4 would you go to work? 5 A When would I go to work? 6 Q What time of day would you go to work? 7 A The court is open 8:30 to 5:00. 8 Q What time would you go to work? 9 A I would get there 8:30, 9:00. 10 Q 8:30 or 9:00? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And the court starts at 8:30? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Why would you -- 15 A I said 8:30 or 9:00. 16 Q Why would you take 30 extra minutes to get 17 there if the court opened at 8:30? 18 A If I had to be there at 8:30, I wouldn't have 19 a problem with being there. 20 Q Would you be there? 21 A Yes, sir, I would. 22 Q What time would you break? 23 A Normally the lunch hour is one hour, 1:00 to 24 2:00. 25 Q What time would you go home? 0120 1 A Courts normally conclude at 5:00, but if there 2 is a trial that is going on, of course I'd have to stay. 3 If there were people sitting there ready to plead to a 4 charge, I'm amenable to staying late to get the job 5 done. 6 Q How would your temperament be towards people 7 who serve on juries as consideration for the fact that 8 they have children in day care or they're to serve on 9 the jury, and they're sitting there waiting, and the 10 judge doesn't show on the bench until they get ready to 11 show on the bench, and the solicitor is waiting and the 12 law enforcement is waiting? How would you react to 13 those -- 14 A I would definitely take their feelings into 15 consideration. You brought up a good point. When I 16 worked as First Assistant Solicitor, I had an 17 opportunity to observe lots of judges and I saw how 18 their demeanor -- 19 Q You know what I'm talking about, don't you? 20 A I do. And I saw how it affected the Court. I 21 would be respectful of their time. They wouldn't 22 come -- I would be sure there would be something for 23 them to preside over. Like I said earlier, if you only 24 have one trial ready and that individual pleads guilty, 25 there's nothing for them to do, and all those jurors 0121 1 have to be inconvenienced with parking or going back to 2 work, whatever the case may be, I would certainly take 3 into consideration that because I dealt with it 4 firsthand. 5 Q What was your backlog when you became probate 6 judge? 7 A My backlog? We basically would try to make 8 sure the cases were heard with 120 days. 9 Q What was your backlog? What was your 10 caseload? What was the numbers? 11 A I would say maybe 200 or so. 12 Q What is it now? 13 A It's probably about 150, 200. I've noticed 14 that probate has become very complicated. There is lots 15 more litigation than when we initially started. But I'm 16 happy to say that a lot more people are executing last 17 will judgments, and I'd like to take credit for that, 18 increasing the awareness and encouraging wills. 19 Q Are you telling me if you get elected, you 20 will show up before court starts and you will run normal 21 hours? 22 A Certainly. I'm very diligent about starting 23 my hearings on time because I had the privilege of -- 24 Q This is something that I am really, really 25 encouraging the judges to start doing, run court like a 0122 1 business. 2 A Right. 3 Q As you well said, when you were assistant 4 solicitor, you know what I'm talking about. 5 A I do. And I had the privilege of working with 6 a very diligent Circuit Court judge, and I learned from 7 him that court starts at 9:00, you be there at 9:00, 8 we're breaking for 10 minutes, we're back on the bench. 9 Q In 10 minutes. 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Not two hours. 12 A Right. 13 SENATOR McCONNELL: That having completed the 14 questions, let me summarize to you where we go from 15 here. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 SENATOR McCONNELL: The committee retains the 18 right to keep the record open -- it's no reflection on 19 you. We do it for all candidates -- in the event we 20 learn something or something comes up that we need 21 additional information for. So it is a standing 22 practice of this Commission. 23 We also ask you, questions that we have asked 24 you on the record, please not discuss those with the 25 other candidates so that they know what we're asking 0123 1 about. Keep the playing field even, so to speak. 2 With that, you are free to go. We thank you 3 for coming and subjecting yourself to the process and 4 your willingness to engage in public service. 5 Yes, Senator Ford. 6 SENATOR FORD: Now, I have to be proud of you. 7 I mean, you took a lot. I mean, it was rough. I felt 8 for you, but you hung in there. You did a fantastic 9 job. I see why Hilary Clinton wanted Obama to go first 10 in the debate. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Anything more on this 12 candidate? Senator. 13 SENATOR KNOTTS: Let me state something. The 14 questions that we've given you was not anything towards 15 you. It's to make sure that we start, as a screening 16 committee, screening judges and getting judges with a 17 good temperament and have good policies that are backed 18 up by the Constitution and the law, and not just because 19 you put on a robe and you get robitis. That's why you 20 went through some of the questions that you did. And I 21 appreciate you answering it and going through the 22 process. You just happened to be first. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you all. I do appreciate 24 your consideration. 25 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. And Judge 0124 1 Williams, I want to thank you for coming and for your 2 dedication to public service. Thank you so much. 3 We will take a five-minute break. 4 (Whereupon there was a recess 5 in the proceedings from 11:30 to 11:35.) 6 SENATOR McCONNELL: We will reconvene the 7 Judicial Screening Commission at this time and proceed 8 to our next applicant, Mrs. Maite Murphy. We are 9 delighted to have you with us. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Before I swear you in, do 12 you have anybody you wish to introduce? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, my husband Chris 14 Murphy is present with me today. 15 SENATOR McCONNELL: Good to see you. Glad to 16 have you with us. 17 MAITE MURPHY, being first duly sworn, 18 testified as follows: 19 SENATOR McCONNELL: The Judicial Merit 20 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 21 qualifications for the bench. Our inquiry is focused on 22 our non-evaluative criteria, and that has included a 23 survey of the Bench and the Bar, a thorough study of 24 your application materials, verification of your 25 compliance of state ethic laws, a search of newspaper 0125 1 articles in which your name appears, a study of previous 2 screenings, and a check of economic conflicts of 3 interest. 4 We have received no affidavits filed in 5 opposition to your election. No witnesses are present 6 to testify. I'd ask you if you have any brief opening 7 statements you wish to make at this time. It's purely 8 discretionary with you. After that I am going to turn 9 you over to counsel, Jane Shuler. She will have a 10 series of questions for you. That will be followed by 11 seeing if the Commissioners have any questions also. 12 With that, I ask you if there is any opening statement 13 you wish to make. 14 THE WITNESS: Just very briefly. I know that 15 you have a full agenda ahead of you. I would just like 16 to thank you for your service to the State and for 17 participating in this long process, and I certainly look 18 forward to answering any questions that you have. 19 EXAMINATION 20 MS. SHULER: Mr. Chairman, members of the 21 Commission, the few procedural matters to take care of. 22 BY MS. SHULER: 23 Q Ms. Murphy, is the document handed to you your 24 Personal Data Questionnaire you submitted as part of 25 your application? 0126 1 A Yes, ma'am, it is. 2 Q Is there any amendment you would like to make 3 at this time to your Personal Data Questionnaire? 4 A Yes, ma'am, I do have a written amendment. 5 MS. SHULER: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 6 would ask that Ms. Murphy's Personal Data Questionnaire 7 and her amendment be entered as an exhibit into the 8 record. 9 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 10 Hearing none, the Personal Data Questionnaire will be 11 entered into the record at this time as if you fully 12 stated all of it on the record. 13 (JMSC PDQ for Maite Murphy marked JMSC Exhibit 14 Number 34, for identification.) 15 (Maite Murphy Amendment to PDQ marked JMSC 16 Exhibit Number 35, for identification.) 17 MS. SHULER: Ms. Murphy also provided a sworn 18 statement detailing answers to further questions 19 regarding judicial conduct, statutory qualifications, 20 office administration and temperament. That statement 21 was provided to all the Commission members earlier and 22 is included in your notebooks. I have no concerns with 23 the statement and, with the Commission's approval, I 24 would ask those questions be waived in the public 25 hearing today. 0127 1 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 2 Hearing none, the sworn statement will be entered into 3 the record at this time. 4 (Sworn Statement of Maite Murphy marked JMSC 5 Exhibit Number 36, for identification.) 6 BY MS. SHULER: 7 Q Do you have any amendments to your sworn 8 statement? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Q One final procedural matter. I note for the 11 record that based on the testimony contained in the 12 candidate's PDQ, which has been included in the record 13 with the candidate's consent, Ms. Murphy meets the 14 statutory requirements for this position regarding age, 15 residence and years of practice. 16 Ms. Murphy, after practicing law for 13 years, 17 why do you now want to serve as a Circuit Court judge? 18 A Ms. Shuler, I want to be a Circuit Court judge 19 because I think I can have a positive impact on the 20 legal community. Throughout my career I have been 21 afforded the great pleasure of gaining great trial 22 experience. And with that trial experience I think you 23 learn a little something. With each case that you 24 handle and each courtroom that you're in, you learn from 25 not only other attorneys, but judges, you learn from 0128 1 victims of crime and the jury and victims of 2 circumstance even. And what you learn and what you take 3 out of that system is that it's very important, 4 extremely important to understand that when somebody 5 leaves a courtroom in this state, when they leave there, 6 whether or not they like the outcome of the case, that 7 they feel that they were treated fairly, justly and 8 diligently by the Court. And I think I can bring those 9 qualities to the bench. 10 Q Ms. Murphy, is there anything else regarding 11 your legal professional experience that you can explain 12 to the Commission that will help you to serve as an 13 effective Circuit Court judge? 14 A Certainly. Serving as an effective Circuit 15 Court judge, I think you have to have a love for what 16 you do and a love for being in the position that you're 17 in. And I have a great respect for the law and the 18 legal system as a whole, and certainly I would find this 19 profession, this career, this judicial career to be very 20 fulfilling, as far as intellectually fulfilling, and it 21 would also allow me the opportunity to be where I love 22 to be, and that's in the courtroom. 23 Q Ms. Murphy, I know that you have experience as 24 an assistant solicitor and in private practice. We did 25 receive one Bench and Bar survey which indicates your 0129 1 experience is limited almost to criminal law, and it 2 expressed concern about your lack of civil experience. 3 What response would you offer to that bench and bar 4 survey? 5 A Well, initially I think my ability to handle 6 complex civil legal issues can be certainly demonstrated 7 by my appointment as a special referee to handle the 8 Exxon/Mobil case which arose out of Orangeburg County. 9 I was responsible as the special referee to go through 10 each of those claims which were submitted throughout the 11 state, and it dealt with millions and millions of 12 dollars, and I had to go through each claim and make 13 sure that the claimants presented their case and their 14 expert testimony was adequate to prove their case by a 15 preponderance of the evidence. I also had to address 16 Exxon's affirmative defenses to see if they were valid 17 or not. 18 And based upon that, I had to, of course, 19 apply the law and issue a report with findings of fact 20 and conclusions of law, to issue a report to the Court. 21 So certainly I think that shows that I have the 22 capability of handling complex civil matters. 23 And I do have some civil experience, and it's 24 certainly not extensive as criminal experience, but the 25 framework really of trials is very similar. And I think 0130 1 you can learn to be prepared no matter what is coming 2 before you and learn where to look for the law and to 3 make sure that you're adequately prepared. And a person 4 that's proficient in one area of the law one day still 5 has to study and bone up on exactly what's coming down 6 and what new decisions require. So I think the practice 7 of law is just that, it's a practice. I think we have 8 to practice and stay on top of things no matter how long 9 we've been practicing. 10 Q I think you alluded to this, but Ms. Murphy, 11 are there any additional areas of the law that you feel 12 you would need to prepare for? And if so, how would you 13 undergo that preparation? 14 A Well, certainly as far as preparation is 15 concerned, I think you have to prepare for all cases. 16 You want to go in there and be prepared. And certainly 17 when you go into a civil term of court, you want to go 18 through the roster and see what kind of cases are coming 19 up for trial that week, and just make sure that you're 20 up to date on the law, the case law and the procedural 21 law that's coming that week. 22 And certainly there's a great advantage if 23 you're on the bench and something comes up that you 24 don't know, I know where to look it up. So certainly I 25 think it's a learning process as you go throughout this 0131 1 career. And even in criminal law, I think you always 2 still have to make sure that your knowledge is up to 3 date as to when you go before each case. 4 Q Ms. Murphy, although you addressed this in 5 your sworn affidavit, could you explain to the 6 Commission members what you believe to be the 7 appropriate demeanor for a judge? 8 A A judge should always be courteous, should 9 always be fair and respectful and patient. 10 Q When you leave the bench, what would you like 11 your legacy to be as a judge on the Circuit Court? 12 A Certainly I would want the constituents in the 13 State of South Carolina to be proud of my service, to 14 feel that they were treated fairly and efficiently, and 15 that people that came before me, like I stated earlier, 16 although they may not like the outcome of the case, they 17 felt that I treated them with respect and fairness and I 18 was diligent in handling their matters. 19 Q Thank you. What suggestions would you offer 20 for improving the backlog of cases on the docket in 21 Circuit Court, either for Common Pleas and/or General 22 Sessions court? 23 A Certainly, it's an unfortunate reality that we 24 have such a backlog of cases in both the criminal and 25 civil dockets today. And I think people have the 0132 1 impression, certainly litigants have the impression that 2 if they are going to be part of the system, that it's 3 going to be just as delayed. It's going to take a while 4 to get there. And certainly there have been very 5 serious consequences of the backlog in the criminal 6 arena by having criminal defendants that are out on bond 7 committing very serious crimes while their cases not 8 having been called to trial. 9 And certainly that's a problem, I think, not 10 only for the judiciary, but for the staffs of the 11 Solicitor's Office and the Public Defender's Office in 12 dealing with limited budgetary constraints and 13 resources. What I have done in anticipation, say if you 14 do nominate me and I am elected, to go ahead and try to 15 figure out a solution to try to help the problem as I 16 have met with the Clerk of Court to discuss with her a 17 case management system which was implemented and how 18 that has helped somewhat. 19 And certainly in the civil side, to have the 20 Orders and the filings automatically available on line 21 is certainly a great time saver. I think it could be 22 better and could be more efficient if it was done 23 somewhat like in the federal court system, where 24 everyone has a password and you sign on and you file. 25 And that file is automatically served on the other 0133 1 party. So you save right there 30 days and lots of 2 processors to process if that's automatically done. So 3 I think that's a further step that could certainly be 4 taken to help alleviate the backlog on the civil term. 5 As far as the criminal term goes, in the past 6 before the Chief Justice implemented this system, it 7 would sometimes take six to eight weeks to get a warrant 8 into the Solicitor's Office. The magistrate would enter 9 the warrant into the system when it was served and 10 executed, and there would be a stack of them, and then 11 mail them to the Clerk of Court's Office. They would 12 input them, and then they would get a stack of them and 13 then mail them to the Solicitor's Office. And that 14 process sometimes took six to eight weeks. If you 15 consider that sometimes in six to eight weeks, you could 16 have potentially four terms of court, that's four terms 17 of court that you could have bond settings, you could 18 have attorneys appointed, or you could potentially 19 remove that case during that period of time. 20 So I think it's a great first step that the 21 case management system is doing to alleviate some of 22 that backlog. I did talk to the clerk about right now 23 they're still printing out the hard copies and sending 24 them to the Solicitor's Office, but I believe starting 25 next week they are going to immediately e-mail it to the 0134 1 Solicitor's Office, so they will have instant access to 2 those cases. So I think that's a huge step forward. 3 I think the other thing that would help in the 4 backlog of criminal cases is right now only the 5 magistrate's offices are mandated to go through the case 6 management system. It would be very helpful for these 7 counties as well, because dockets -- a percentage of 8 cases that come through the dockets in these counties is 9 a pretty large number of cases that could also be dealt 10 with. So that's certainly a step in the right 11 direction. 12 Q Thank you. Ms. Murphy, your SLED report 13 indicates a lawsuit filed in 1995 as a prisoner civil 14 rights matter by an inmate by the name of James Pilgrim. 15 What was the outcome? 16 A James Pilgrim? I don't think I was ever 17 served with that, Ms. Shuler. 18 Q Are there any other additional matters? 19 A The only one that I ever had was the one that 20 I addressed in my amendment to the complaint where the 21 applicant was Denny Bates, and I did a brief explanation 22 in my amendment as to what that suit was about. 23 Q Thank you. Have you sought or received a 24 pledge of any legislator prior to this date? 25 A No, ma'am. 0135 1 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 2 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 3 the outcome of your screening? 4 A No, ma'am. 5 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 6 any members of the Commission? 7 A No, ma'am. 8 Q Have you contacted any members of the 9 Commission? 10 A No. The only caveat on that would, I think, 11 would be when we filed our applications, I did do a 12 mail-out announcing my candidacy with a card that 13 contained a brief description of my qualifications. I 14 was very careful to not send any to the members that 15 were on the Commission, but of course I think we have 16 some new members on the Commission. So certainly if 17 they received it -- I think I called your office just to 18 make sure it was okay to send that out. And your answer 19 was just as long as we disclosed that when we found out 20 who the members of the Commission are. 21 Q Do you understand that you're prohibited from 22 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 23 formal release of the Commission's report? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 0136 1 on pledging? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of the penalties 4 for violating the pledging rules, that is, it is a 5 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the violator will be 6 fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more that 7 90 days? 8 A Yes. 9 Q I would note that the Lowcountry Citizens 10 Committee reported that on Constitutional Qualifications 11 for Ms. Murphy, Ms. Murphy meets the Constitutional 12 qualifications for the judicial position she seeks. 13 Ethical Fitness: Persons interviewed by the 14 committee indicated that Ms. Murphy is considered 15 ethical. 16 Professional and Academic Ability: The 17 committee gave Ms. Murphy a good rating in this area. 18 Character: The committee reported that 19 Ms. Murphy's character is unquestionable. 20 Reputation: Ms. Murphy enjoys a good 21 reputation in the community and among her peers. 22 Physical and Mental Health: There is evidence 23 that Ms. Murphy is physically and mentally capable of 24 performing the duties required of a judge of the Circuit 25 Court. 0137 1 Experience: The committee recognized 2 Ms. Murphy's diverse legal experience. 3 Judicial Temperament: The committee gave 4 Ms. Murphy a good rating in this category. 5 MS. SHULER: I would just note for the record 6 that any concerns raised during the investigation 7 regarding the candidate were incorporated into the 8 questioning of the candidate today. Mr. Chairman, I 9 have no further questions. 10 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. Does any 11 member of the Commission have a question? Senator from 12 Lexington. 13 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 14 Q Ms. Murphy, I appreciate you coming in and 15 applying to be a Circuit Court judge. As an assistant 16 solicitor, you are very familiar with the courtroom and 17 its operation, right? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q When do you think court should start? 20 A As soon as the judge gets there at 9:00 or 21 8:30. When the term of court starts, I think the judge 22 should be able to get on the bench. And frankly, I find 23 it somewhat frustrating when you go to court and the 24 judge is back there waiting in chambers, and all that is 25 going on outside is people getting signed up or getting 0138 1 ready to be signed up, and people talking about who is 2 going to plead guilty and who is not going to plead 3 guilty. Those matters, in my book, should really be 4 handled the week before so that when you get to a term 5 of court, you don't waste time. 6 Q Do you think that it would be a good procedure 7 that the Solicitor's Office would handle cases like that 8 and set times and that they could set the time if they 9 knew the judge was going to be there on time? 10 A Certainly. Certainly. I think a lot of that, 11 Senator, is communication. And when I was deputy 12 solicitor in the circuit, what we would do is have 13 docket meetings prior to the term of court. We would 14 have the list prepared for not only us and the public 15 defender and the judge, and basically we would say, 16 these are trials that are going to take X amount of 17 time. These are the number of pleads that we have. 18 Let's get them signed up and let's get ready to roll. 19 And to have witnesses present so that wasn't the cause 20 for delays. So yes, absolutely, I think you don't need 21 to waste time during a term of court because there are 22 too many cases waiting. 23 Q So you believe in actual strict adherence to 24 the judge being there when the court opens, and staying 25 there until a certain time, and leaving for lunch and 0139 1 coming back at a certain time, and running the courtroom 2 like a business, right? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q And now as assistant solicitor, you've gotten 5 previous experience with judges that don't do that 6 currently? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And it would operate a whole lot better, 9 right? 10 A I would hope so. 11 Q And you pledge that you would adhere to good 12 work ethics? 13 A Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think to be in 14 that position, you have to have the energy and the drive 15 to make it work well and to try to move cases. That's 16 part of your job, and I would take that very seriously. 17 Q How about your consideration of jurors who 18 come there to serve on the jury and have children to 19 pick up in the afternoon and stuff like that? Would you 20 take that into consideration at the end of the day 21 whenever you shut down court, to shut it down 22 reasonably? 23 A Well, sure. 24 Q Unless you have a pressing jury out? 25 A Right. If a jury is deliberating, I think 0140 1 that's a different story. I think you can make 2 accommodations for a family member to be contacted or 3 somebody to go pick up your child if that's what needs 4 to be done. Certainly, jurors have lives to. They 5 don't need to be waiting without anything to do. They 6 need their time to be productive, as well. 7 SENATOR McCONNELL: Any other questions? 8 Being none, do you have anything further? 9 MS. SHULER: No, sir. 10 SENATOR McCONNELL: There being nothing else, 11 let me explain to you the procedure of the Commission. 12 We reserve the right to keep the file open in the event 13 that anything should come up and we need additional 14 information up until we take a vote. It's not to 15 indicate there's any pending matter. We treat everybody 16 the same in that regard. 17 Secondly, we would ask you not to discuss with 18 the other candidates the questions that we've asked you 19 in here today, so that each of you sits in that chair on 20 an equal playing field, so to speak. 21 With that, you're free to go. We thank you 22 for cooperating with the staff and getting all this 23 paperwork done and giving this Commission all the 24 material in order to make an objective evaluation. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 0141 1 (Witness excused.) 2 SENATOR McCONNELL: With that we'll proceed to 3 our next applicant. 4 MS. SHULER: The next applicant is 5 Mr. Dickson, and it's tab 5. 6 SENATOR McCONNELL: We'll go back on the 7 record at this time. We have before us Edgar Warren 8 Dickson for the Circuit Court, for the First Judicial 9 Circuit, Seat Number 1. Good to have you here with us 10 today. 11 THE WITNESS: Glad to be here. 12 EDGAR WARREN DICKSON, being first duly sworn, 13 testified as follows: 14 EXAMINATION 15 SENATOR McCONNELL: The Judicial Merit 16 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 17 qualifications for the Bench. Our inquiry focused on 18 our non-evaluative criteria, and that has included the 19 survey of the Bench and the Bar, a thorough study of 20 your application materials, a verification of your 21 compliance with state ethics laws, a search of newspaper 22 articles in which your name appears, a study of previous 23 screenings, and a check for economic conflicts of 24 interest. 25 We have received no affidavits of opposition 0142 1 to your election. No witnesses are present to testify. 2 I'll ask you, and it's purely optional with you, do you 3 have any brief opening statement you'd like to make at 4 this time before I turn you over to counsel for 5 questioning? 6 THE WITNESS: I'm waiving the opening 7 statements. I'm glad to be here, though. 8 SENATOR McCONNELL: With that I'll turn you 9 over to counsel for a few questions. When she has 10 completed that, I'll see if any of the Commissioners 11 have any questions. After that, we'll try to wrap 12 things up. 13 MS. WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members 14 of the Commission. I have a few procedural matters to 15 take care of. 16 BY MS. WELLS: 17 Q Mr. Dickson, if you would look to the left of 18 you, you have a document that is your Personal Data 19 Questionnaire. 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Q Would you agree that that is the Personal Data 22 Questionnaire you submitted as part of your application? 23 A It is. 24 Q Is there any amendment you would like to make 25 at this time to your Personal Data Questionnaire? 0143 1 A I need to do an amendment to question number 2 31. 3 MS. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask 4 that Mr. Dickson's Personal Data Questionnaire and 5 amendment be entered into as an exhibit in the hearing 6 record. 7 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 8 There being none, so ordered. 9 (JMSC PDQ for Edgar Warren Dickson marked JMSC 10 Exhibit Number 37, for identification.) 11 (Edgar Warren Dickson Amendment to PDQ marked 12 JMSC Exhibit Number 38, for identification.) 13 MS. WELLS: Thank you. Mr. Dickson also, 14 members of the Commission and Mr. Chairman, provided a 15 sworn statement with detailed answers to over 30 16 questions regarding judicial conduct, statutory 17 qualifications, office administration and temperament. 18 That statement was provided to all Commission members 19 earlier and is included in your notebook. I have no 20 concerns with the statement and, with the Commission's 21 approval, I would ask that those questions be waived at 22 this public hearing today. 23 BY MS. WELLS: 24 Q Mr. Dickson, is the document that you have 25 before you the sworn statement you submitted as part of 0144 1 your application? 2 A It is. 3 Q And is there an amendment you would like to 4 make at this time to your sworn statement? 5 A I do have an amendment to question number 8. 6 Q Which is a technical amendment changing the 7 words "your spouse" to "my spouse." 8 MS. WELLS: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 9 would like to ask that Mr. Dickson's sworn statement and 10 the amendment be entered into as exhibits in this 11 record. 12 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 13 Hearing none, the Personal Data Questionnaire along with 14 the amendment will be entered into the record at this 15 time. 16 MS. WELLS: And sworn statement. 17 SENATOR McCONNELL: And sworn statement. 18 Please proceed. 19 (Edgar Warren Dickson Amendment to PDQ marked 20 JMSC Exhibit Number 39, for identification.) 21 MS. WELLS: One final procedural matter. I 22 note for the record that based on the testimony 23 contained in the candidate's Personal Data 24 Questionnaire, which has been included in the record, 25 Mr. Dickson meets the statutory requirement for this 0145 1 position regarding age, residence and years of practice. 2 BY MS. WELLS: 3 Q Mr. Dickson, why do you now want to serve as a 4 Circuit Court judge? 5 A Well, I practiced law for 31 years. I enjoyed 6 practicing law in the courtroom. I feel like with my 7 experience and like that, I would like to be a judge. I 8 think with the variety of experiences I've had in my 9 background, I think I would be a good Circuit Court 10 judge. 11 Q And as a follow-up to that, Mr. Dickson, would 12 you please explain to the members of the Commission how 13 you feel your legal and professional experience thus far 14 would help you to be an effective Circuit Court judge? 15 A Well, from the standpoint of just -- from a 16 professional standpoint, I have done criminal law and 17 civil law. I defended any number of different criminal 18 cases that I was appointed to. 19 I have -- from a criminal standpoint, I have a 20 feeling for what it's like to be a victim in a criminal 21 case. I've had my house burglarized. My son was robbed 22 at gunpoint in Charleston. And I've had my first 23 cousin's daughter murdered. I have defended, helped 24 defend murderers, I've defended burglars, I've defended 25 robbers. So I can see it from both the defendant's 0146 1 standpoint and from the victim's standpoint. 2 In civil actions, I have represented both 3 plaintiffs and defendants. In civil actions, I've done 4 appeals into circuit courts, and probate, Master's 5 court, workers' comp. So I've got a wide variety of 6 experience in Circuit Court, and I believe that that 7 experience, plus the life experiences -- I was a teacher 8 for two years before I went to law school. I didn't 9 come to law school just straight out of college. 10 So I just have a lot of experience that I 11 think would help out in making people more comfortable 12 when they come into a courtroom situation, because I've 13 been -- I know what they're going through. 14 Q Are there any areas that you feel you would 15 need to additionally prepare for to be an effective 16 Circuit Court judge? And if so, how would you go about 17 that additional preparation? 18 A The only areas in Circuit Court that I have 19 not actually been involved in a trial in is death 20 penalty cases, even though I've done murder cases. I 21 have not been involved in class action lawsuits. And it 22 seems like there's one other area. But to answer the 23 question, to take it -- I would have to go to CLEs or, 24 hopefully, sit with another judge who is actually 25 handling a case like that. You either get smart or get 0147 1 help or get out. 2 Q Mr. Dickson, although you address this in your 3 sworn statement, would you please tell the members of 4 the Commission what you think is the appropriate 5 demeanor for a judge? 6 A Well, I think the most important thing for a 7 judge is he's got to stay calm, he's got to stay in 8 control of his courtroom. But I think people, when they 9 come in front of a judge, they want to make sure that a 10 judge is giving them proper consideration. So you have 11 to listen to what they are actually going to say. I 12 think if people appear in front of you and have an 13 opportunity to say what their problem is, you're less 14 likely to have appeals, you're less likely to have 15 complaints against the attorney representing them, 16 you're less likely to have PCRs filed by criminals when 17 suits don't go their ways. 18 So thoughtful, considerate. A judge has to 19 take the time to listen to people and make sure they 20 feel like they've gotten a full and fair hearing in 21 front of him. 22 Q What suggestions would you offer for improving 23 the backlog of cases on the dockets currently in Circuit 24 Court, for Common Pleas and/or General Sessions? 25 A Well, lawyers work on deadlines, like we all 0148 1 do. And to me the quickest way to make an impact on it 2 is to effectively use Rule 16, where you have 3 prehearings, you have meetings with the attorneys. You 4 can -- as soon as you can get started having the 5 attorneys come together and start talking to you about 6 the problems they have with the case and like that, the 7 sooner you can have things get resolved. 8 I know under the rules, those prehearing 9 briefs are not made part of the courtroom file, but it 10 would be handy if, in addition to that, the prehearing 11 briefs would be kept in kind of a computer situation 12 where they're scanned, so that if I have a prehearing 13 for attorneys in, say, Allendale, and then somebody's 14 coming behind me, they can go on line, check the docket 15 number, pull up the prehearing briefs and like that 16 without having to call their attorneys and make them 17 have to go through the expense or time or redoing it 18 again, unless they've got some amendments. 19 Additionally, if the judges can then put notes 20 on there where their attorneys have agreed to take 21 depositions within 30 days or 60 days or something like 22 that, you can then follow up by just checking on the 23 computer and see if they've done that. And I think you 24 can move things along a little more quickly that way. 25 With most of the times that I've been -- when 0149 1 you're getting ready for a week of trials, generally the 2 first day is a roster meeting. You get there early in 3 the morning and you have to kill at least half the 4 morning going through the roster. If you want to move 5 the docket along, Friday afternoons, if you could get 6 the -- if you could start working through the docket for 7 wherever you're going and call both attorneys and see 8 where they are, you could be ready to hit the ground 9 running on Monday. 10 If you could organize the motions docket -- 11 most of the times when you go to Circuit Courts, they 12 have the list of the motions in chronological order. I 13 think that's good because you've got to know which one 14 is the oldest. Also, if you could separate them by the 15 type of motions they are, because summary judgment 16 motions and discovery motions will hold up people 17 getting ready for trial, and those should take priority 18 by judges. You should be able to work through those so 19 you can get rid of any summary judgment issues, and 20 maybe you can dispose of the case if they're grant and 21 summary judgments. If there are discovery issues, you 22 can go ahead and resolve that and then they can get 23 ready for trial. Then there won't be -- when you go to 24 a roster meeting, and they go, "Well, Judge, we've got 25 an outstanding summary judgment motion. We've got some 0150 1 discovery issues that haven't been addressed," if I know 2 that there are four summary judgment motions out there, 3 if I get some free time, it just seems like it would 4 make sense to go ahead and take care of those and take 5 care of discovery issues so that they could at least be 6 ready for trial. 7 The other thing, sometimes in -- you know, you 8 have court set in some of the smaller counties through 9 the Common Pleas or General Session, and court breaks 10 down. And it would be nice if the jurors were put on 11 notice -- and I don't know whether you can or not -- be 12 put on notice that they could hear either Common Pleas 13 or criminal cases. And that way if Common Pleas 14 settles, you can take care of some of maybe just day 15 cases, a burglary case or a little robbery case or 16 something like that, just to get things moving along. 17 But those are just some kind of general ideas. 18 And I'm looking at it from the outside rather than the 19 inside, so I don't know exactly how. But I do 20 understand courts have a good computer system, so it 21 seems like you could take advantage of that. 22 Q Thank you, Mr. Dickson. When you leave the 23 bench, what would you like your legacy to be as a judge 24 on the Circuit Court? 25 A I'd like for people to be sad I'm leaving. I 0151 1 would like to think that everybody thought they had fair 2 hearings in front of me. I would like for nobody to 3 think that I was either a plaintiff's judge or a defense 4 judge. I'd just like if they came in front of me and 5 felt like they got a fair shake. 6 Q Thank you, Mr. Dickson. I have a few 7 housekeeping issues -- 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Q -- to take care of. Have you sought or 10 received a pledge of any legislator prior to this date? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 13 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 14 the outcome of your screening? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 17 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 18 A No, ma'am. 19 Q Have you contacted any members of the 20 Commission? 21 A No, ma'am. 22 Q Do you understand that you're prohibited from 23 seeking a pledge of commitment until 48 hours after the 24 formal release of the Commission's report? 25 A Yes, ma'am. 0152 1 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 2 on pledging? 3 A I have. 4 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of the penalties 5 for violating the pledging rules, that is, it is a 6 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the violator must be 7 fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 8 90 days? 9 A I understand it, and I can't afford it. 10 MS. WELLS: Members of the Commission, 11 Mr. Chairman, I would note that the Lowcountry Citizens 12 Committee reported that Mr. Dickson was suitable for 13 this judicial seat. The committee found that in all 14 categories of this report, Mr. Dickson met or exceeded 15 the qualifications of this judicial seat. 16 And I would also note for the record that any 17 concerns raised during the investigation regarding the 18 candidate were incorporated into the questioning of this 19 candidate today. Mr. Chairman, I have no further 20 questions. 21 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. Does any 22 member of the Commission have a question? Senator from 23 Charleston. 24 BY SENATOR FORD: 25 Q Your Honor, I'm going to be quick. I hope you 0153 1 could give me a quick short answer. You've got a lot of 2 experience, 31 years as a lawyer. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And you know the major problems in the present 5 system would be with the backlog, and I heard your 6 answers on that. 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Have you ever had a client -- in your 31 9 years, have you ever had a client, and God forbid you 10 was trying to shop for judge, and during that process 11 shopping, later somebody got killed by your client or 12 another major crime took place by your client? 13 A No, I've never been involved with any judge 14 shopping. 15 Q Oh, you never did no shopping? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q So you never had a client who wound up doing 18 some serious time -- I mean did some serious crime 19 because of the delay in the system? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q In 31 years? 22 A No, sir. If I'm understanding your question 23 correctly, sir, are you saying because the case was 24 delayed, he actually ended up spending more time? 25 Q No, no, no. 0154 1 A I'm sorry. 2 Q Because the case was delayed, he committed 3 other major crimes. 4 A No, sir, I have not been involved in that 5 situation. 6 Q So you don't have any clients in the 7 Charleston area? 8 A No, sir, I don't, other than my nephew, but I 9 got him off. 10 Q Well, I'm going to be quick. You have to be 11 commended, because in 31 years, you never did no 12 shopping and you never had a client, while waiting to go 13 to trial, committed a more serious crime. 14 A No, sir. Most of the time in the criminal 15 cases that I got appointed to, they were in jail at the 16 time I got appointed. 17 Q And during that process they stayed in jail? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Or they were tried and put in jail? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q This is in 31 years? 22 A Yes, sir. Now, I need to make sure you 23 understand. It's only since about 2000 I started doing 24 criminal work and I started getting appointed criminal 25 cases. Prior to that, I was doing appointments in 0155 1 family law, in family court cases. And I got tired of 2 being appointed in those, and the only way I could get 3 out of it was to be appointed in criminal cases. So I 4 chose in about 2000 to start getting appointed in 5 criminal cases. That's when I started defending 6 criminal cases. 7 Q One more question. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Let's say Robert Ford is the lawyer and he 10 also is a member of the General Assembly. We have to 11 vote on you to be a judge. 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q How would you treat Robert Ford in court as a 14 lawyer? 15 A As a lawyer. You wouldn't get no special 16 treatment. 17 Q I wouldn't get no special treatment? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q In 31 years, has anybody shown any favoritism 20 towards you? 21 A Towards me? No, sir. I would appreciate it. 22 No. 23 SENATOR McCONNELL: Senator from Lexington. 24 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 25 Q I think I know my answers to these questions, 0156 1 but in being equal, giving everybody equal time, when is 2 court supposed to start? 3 A 9:00 Monday morning. 4 Q And when are you supposed to be there? 5 A I should be there before then. My aunt -- 6 when I started teaching school, my aunt was an English 7 teacher and she said, "If you get to class first, it's 8 your class. If you get to class after the students get 9 there, it's theirs. So you better be there first." 10 Q And when is it supposed to end? 11 A Whenever you finish getting through all the 12 cases. Sometimes they go into the evening and you've 13 got to keep trying them. 14 Q If you recess at 2:30, does that mean 2:30? 15 A It means 2:30 we'll start back, if I'm -- if I 16 say everybody's supposed to be back at 2:30? 17 Q If you're going to be there at 2:30, you 18 expect everybody else to be back then, too. 19 A I'll be there at 2:15. 20 Q You'll be there at 2:15, ready to go at 2:30? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 SENATOR McCONNELL: I have just one follow-up 23 question in light of the questions from the Senator from 24 Charleston. Senator Ford? Senator Ford? Thank you, 25 sir. 0157 1 BY SENATOR McCONNELL: 2 Q To follow-up on special treatment, do you 3 understand that if a lawyer legislator is in session, 4 what would be your policy if he's got to be here at the 5 General Assembly for session? 6 A I understand that they do get special 7 treatment for that. I can't do anything about that. 8 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. Any other 9 questions? 10 MS. WELLS: I have no other questions. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: We'll wrap it up by 12 telling you two things: One, the Commission keeps the 13 files open and the record open for purposes of any 14 additional information it might receive. It may ask for 15 a clarification on a point, not to indicate there are 16 any pending or open matters with you. 17 Secondly, we ask that you not discuss your 18 responses with the other candidates or the questions 19 that we ask today until these hearings have concluded, 20 so that everybody walks in here on the same footing. 21 With that, you're free to go. We thank you 22 for your cooperation with our staff and for your 23 willingness to serve the people of South Carolina. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 SENATOR FORD: Sir. 0158 1 SENATOR McCONNELL: Yes. 2 SENATOR FORD: What about a serious, serious 3 murder case? And a member of the General Assembly takes 4 it. Does he get special treatment? 5 SENATOR KNOTTS: That's the law. You can't be 6 in court when you're in the General Assembly. The 7 reason for that is back in the old days -- 8 SENATOR FORD: Can the person be on parole or 9 probation? I mean, he would be in jail, right, if a 10 serious murder takes place? 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Senator, things are 12 scheduled around their obligations here. That's what 13 they have to do with the docket, is schedule those cases 14 around the days that the General Assembly is in session. 15 SENATOR FORD: So they could work on Friday 16 and Monday. 17 SENATOR McCONNELL: The wheels of justice and 18 the wheels of the legislature grind together for the 19 good of the people. 20 SENATOR FORD: So they can work on a Monday, 21 right? 22 SENATOR McCONNELL: Yes, the can get called 23 back on a Monday or Friday, not while the General 24 Assembly -- 25 SENATOR KNOTTS: They used to make legislators 0159 1 go to court to keep them from coming up here if there 2 was a big vote going on. That was back in the old days. 3 SENATOR McCONNELL: With that we will conclude 4 this hearing and stand in recess. 5 (Witness excused.) 6 SENATOR McCONNELL: We are reconvened at this 7 point, the Judicial Screening Commission. We will take 8 up Ms. Haydel. Have I pronounced your name correctly? 9 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 10 SENATOR McCONNELL: Thank you. Who is here 11 for Circuit Court for the First Judicial Circuit, Seat 12 Number 1. Before I swear you in, if you have anybody 13 here with you that you want to introduce to the 14 Commission, I'll be happy to hear. 15 THE WITNESS: I do have people with me. My 16 daughter Jillee Anna Walter, my husband Don Walter, my 17 son Andy, and the woman who holds our family together, 18 Rita Swanson. 19 SENATOR McCONNELL: All right. Glad to have 20 you all with us. 21 D'ANNE HAYDEL, being first duly sworn, 22 testified as follows: 23 EXAMINATION 24 SENATOR McCONNELL: The Judicial Merit 25 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 0160 1 qualifications for the bench. Our inquiry is focused on 2 non-evaluative criteria and that has included a survey 3 of the Bench and the Bar, a thorough study of your 4 application materials, a verification of your compliance 5 with state ethics laws, a search of newspaper articles 6 in which your name appears, a study of previous 7 screenings, if any, and to check economic conflicts of 8 interest. 9 We have received one affidavit filed in 10 opposition to your election. One witness is present to 11 testify. I would ask you if you have any brief opening 12 statement you wish to give to the Commission, keeping in 13 mind, of course, that's purely optional for you. Before 14 I turn you over to counsel, Ms. Goldsmith, will have a 15 few questions for you, and then we will hear from the 16 witness and come back to you. 17 THE WITNESS: I had planned to waive my 18 opening statement, but I thought better of it this 19 morning. I'm sorry, since I know you all are running 20 behind. But I would like to turn the focus for just a 21 moment away from my particular judicial seat and tell 22 you that the Judicial Merit Selection process is very 23 user-friendly, and I was surprised. Every lawyer I 24 talked to about this process had a very dim view of it 25 and basically said that if I was not politically well 0161 1 connected, I might as well not even file an application. 2 That was very sobering, because I am 3 politically well connected, but I went ahead with the 4 process. And I have found that there is superb 5 communication within the staff that has run this, and I 6 also believe that they have stuck to the agenda, which 7 is a written agenda and not a hidden agenda, and I 8 appreciate that greatly. And I share that with you 9 because now, regardless of what happens to me here -- I 10 hope this will continue to be a pleasant experience -- I 11 can tell people that it's not what a lot of people have 12 said it is. 13 The second point I'd like to make is this: I 14 want to compliment the Lowcountry Citizens Committee on 15 the strength of its members and their preparation. When 16 you make citizens committees, you often have trouble 17 reaching or getting a quorum. There are often seats at 18 the table that are empty. Not a seat was empty. And 19 the questions that I was asked -- and Ms. Shuler was 20 there. Not a question I was asked was just a broad 21 question. They were literally focused on specific 22 answers I had in my PDQ. And so I would also like to 23 say that I was surprised everyone was there, and I was 24 very heartened that they were very prepared. 25 And in short, I'm a political nobody, but I'm 0162 1 pleased to say that I feel like I've been treated very 2 even-handedly. I expect that to continue. And you 3 should be pleased with the way your staff has handled 4 this particular year's candidates. And that is the 5 conclusion of my opening statement. 6 SENATOR McCONNELL: I want to thank you for 7 your comments regarding the citizens committee for the 8 reason I think they are a very important part of this 9 process. And we like to know that those citizens 10 committees are operating, and comments to them will be 11 passed back. We value their input and we look at it. 12 With that I believe the next step would be 13 Ms. Goldsmith would have a few questions for you. 14 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 15 members of the Commission. I have a few procedural 16 matters to take care of. 17 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 18 Q Ms. Haydel, you were handed two documents when 19 you sat down. Is the first document your Personal Data 20 Questionnaire that you completed during your application 21 process? 22 A Yes, it is. 23 Q Are there any amendments you need to make to 24 that? 25 A No, there are not. 0163 1 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'm going to ask the court 2 reporter at this time to enter it into the record and 3 mark it as an exhibit. 4 (JMSC PDQ for D'Anne Haydel marked JMSC 5 Exhibit Number 40, for identification.) 6 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 7 Q The second document you were handed I believe 8 is your sworn statement; is that correct? 9 A Yes, it is. 10 Q Are there any changes that you need to make to 11 that at this time? 12 A No, there are not. 13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you. If you would, 14 please hand that to the court reporter and have it 15 marked as Exhibit 2 for the record. 16 (Sworn Statement of D'Anne Haydel marked JMSC 17 Exhibit Number 41, for identification.) 18 MS. GOLDSMITH: That sworn statement was 19 provided to all the Commission members earlier and is 20 included in your notebooks. I have no concerns with the 21 statement and, with the Commission's approval, I would 22 ask that those questions be waived in the public hearing 23 today. 24 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 25 Hearing none, the sworn statement and the Personal Data 0164 1 Questionnaire will be entered into the record at this 2 time. You may proceed. 3 MS. GOLDSMITH: One final procedural matter. 4 I note for the record that, based on the testimony 5 contained in Ms. Haydel's Personal Data Questionnaire 6 which has been included in the record, that Ms. Haydel 7 meets the statutory requirements for the position 8 regarding age, residence and years of practice. 9 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 10 Q Ms. Haydel, why do you want to serve as a 11 Circuit Court judge? 12 A I did not know that I wanted to serve as a 13 Circuit Court judge until the position became formally 14 open. I have an upbringing as a trial lawyer. And I 15 know in some circles that means a plaintiff's lawyer, 16 but I do not mean it in that sense. I mean as in a 17 trial courtroom setting. I have a very long history of 18 that, and that was all I'd ever really been interested 19 in. 20 However, at a certain time in my life I have 21 retired from that and moved back to South Carolina. And 22 when an opening came up for the Orangeburg County 23 Attorney, I took that job and became more or less 24 general counsel to Orangeburg County and to some of its 25 affiliated entities. But I do oversee litigation and 0165 1 I'm very involved in it, big cases and small cases. And 2 I do represent Orangeburg County in the courtroom on a 3 regular basis. 4 About two years ago -- I have looked it up 5 because I actually looked at it this morning on the 6 computer, I Googled it -- I ran across a case that made 7 me certain that I wanted to be a judge. It was a case 8 in which I believe that there was not an even playing 9 field. I was not only faced with a multitude of 10 lawyers, but also with a judge who was trying the case 11 against me. I did not appreciate that, and have always 12 had a very high regard for the judiciary since working 13 for Judge Blatt. 14 I think that I'm an even-handed person. I 15 believe that I would be a very good addition to the 16 judiciary because I am even-handed. And that seems to 17 be so self-evident that somebody who would be in that 18 position would have to be that way, but as we all know, 19 that's not necessarily true. So I have the skill set 20 for courtroom work and I now have a goal of making the 21 courtroom more even-handed. 22 Q Thank you. Although you addressed this in 23 your sworn statement, could you please tell the members 24 of the Commission what you think is the appropriate 25 demeanor for a judge? 0166 1 A The demeanor of Judge Blatt, which is one that 2 is attentive, not hurried, but certainly does move 3 things along, a very respectful person and made everyone 4 who was in front of him feel as if this was their day in 5 court, which gave many people confidence in the judicial 6 system that not all people have. That's what I think 7 the proper demeanor is. 8 Q Thank you. When you leave the bench, what 9 would you like your legacy to be as a Circuit Court 10 judge? 11 A That I brought the Bench and Bar together. 12 Q Regarding your experience as it relates to 13 your candidacy, can you explain to the Commission how 14 you feel your legal and professional experience thus far 15 would help you to be an effective Circuit Court judge? 16 A I have worn most of the hats that go in the 17 courtroom, from being a judicial law clerk, to being a 18 lawyer for defendants, being a lawyer for plaintiffs, 19 and about three weeks ago I appeared as a corporate 20 representative for the County of Orangeburg. I am 21 someone who can go into the courtroom with an 22 understanding of what everyone is expecting and what the 23 rules are and make sure that we all play by the rules. 24 When I was finished in Houston, Texas as a 25 practitioner, I was clearly an advocate. After working 0167 1 for the County of Orangeburg now as general counsel, I 2 have a much better view of the judicial system, and it's 3 not all advocacy. There are advocates in the courtroom, 4 but the judge should not be an advocate. I would not 5 have been prepared 10 years ago to be a judge because I 6 was an advocate. 7 Q Based on your legal experience and your 8 practice thus far, are there any areas in which you feel 9 you would need additional preparation? And how would 10 you go about that preparation? 11 A The very first thing I would do is get myself 12 ready on criminal law. Now, when I say, "get myself 13 ready," I don't want anyone here to think I don't have 14 any experience with it, because I do, including about 15 three or four years ago representing somebody on a very 16 serious charge that did not go to trial. I did not 17 include in my Personal Data Questionnaire anything that 18 did not go to trial, which is one of the reasons why I 19 have listed nothing there. 20 But I am not familiar enough with the 21 substantive criminal law to walk into a courtroom right 22 now and know what kind of jury instructions, et cetera, 23 that I would need. Constitutional law has been a first 24 love of mine, and I know that in representing the 25 Detention Center, I do see the civil rights side of many 0168 1 claims. So it is not as if it is new to me, but I have 2 to brush up on a lot. So that would be the very first 3 thing I would want to do. 4 Other than that, just to learn to become a 5 very good Circuit Court judge from other judges, where I 6 became a pretty good county attorney by learning from 7 other county judges. 8 Q What suggestions would you offer for improving 9 the backlog of cases on the docket in Circuit Court? 10 A I believe that this body actually has 11 something to do with money, and so I can't really give 12 my real response. I believe there are many things that 13 can be done and have been done, such as mediation and 14 making that mandatory in certain places, pretrial 15 conferences, et cetera, those kinds of things that can 16 weed out certain cases. But the truth of the matter is, 17 when I worked for Judge Blatt, I came to the realization 18 that at that time the federal court system had to change 19 by having additional seats because the litigation was 20 not going away. 21 And one of the problems I ran into in the 22 federal court, which I see sometimes in the state court, 23 is that people start getting shuffled off to a 24 Master-in-Equity. Now, there is no problem with that 25 because actually Masters are very fine, the ones that I 0169 1 have appeared in front of. 2 But from a civilization standpoint, one of the 3 reasons we have a justice system is so that people who 4 feel they have grievances can have them addressed. And 5 if our forefathers came up with a judicial system and 6 the Circuit Court judge system, I just don't think it's 7 appropriate to shove them off somewhere else, because 8 then people start going to self-help measures. 9 So I think it's important that we do clear the 10 backlog as much as we can, but unfortunately I think 11 that it does take more seats in the judiciary state 12 level. 13 Q Thank you. Ms. Haydel, as you know, an 14 affidavit has been filed against your candidacy. 15 Ms. Mae Halmon filed that complaint, and she is here to 16 testify today. So at this time I'm going to ask you to 17 step aside. 18 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman, one quick 19 question before I forget. 20 SENATOR McCONNELL: Yes, sir? 21 SENATOR FORD: When you say Judge Blatt, are 22 you talking about Sol Blatt? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 SENATOR FORD: And that's a federal judge? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 0170 1 (Witness excused.) 2 SENATOR McCONNELL: Ms. Halmon, if you'd come 3 forward, please, ma'am. Good afternoon. 4 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 5 SENATOR McCONNELL: If you would state your 6 name for the record, please, ma'am. 7 THE WITNESS: Mae Ethel Halmon. 8 MAE HALMON, being first duly sworn, testified 9 as follows: 10 EXAMINATION 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Ms. Goldsmith is our staff 12 attorney and she's going to ask you some questions, so 13 I'll turn her over to you. And then after that we'll 14 see if any of these Commissioners have any questions for 15 you. 16 THE WITNESS: Please speak up a little bit. 17 Sometimes my hearing is a little -- 18 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'll try and be loud for you. 19 SENATOR McCONNELL: And you won't have to 20 worry about those Commissioners down there. They're all 21 loud. 22 MS. GOLDSMITH: At this time I'm going to 23 summarize the complaint that you filed against 24 Ms. Haydel's candidacy. If there's anything else you 25 need to add at the end, if you feel that is the case, 0171 1 you are certainly welcome to do so. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MS. GOLDSMITH: Ms. Halmon is a grandmother of 4 a minor child for which Ms. Haydel served as a guardian 5 ad litem during 2002 through 2007. Ms. Halmon has 6 alleged that from the time of the child's removal from 7 his home, Ms. Haydel was to serve as a guardian ad litem 8 and was to make a determination on the child's placement 9 based on the best interest of the child. Ms. Halmon 10 says that Ms. Haydel never spoke with her. She also 11 alleges that Ms. Haydel never spoke with the child's 12 school, the child's day care, or anyone else who would 13 have information concerning the well being of the minor 14 child. As such, Ms. Halmon believes that Ms. Haydel 15 made an uninformed decision when she recommended to the 16 Court that the child be placed up for adoption or be 17 allowed to stay in Ms. Halmon's custody. 18 I have received three affidavits in regard to 19 Ms. Halmon's complaint. The first was filed by Shirley 20 Bell. Ms. Bell is the director for Progressive Family 21 Life Center Child Development Department, where the 22 minor child was attending day care during these years. 23 Ms. Bell's affidavit states that she has never seen or 24 spoken with Ms. Haydel concerning the minor child. And 25 I would like to have that marked as an exhibit for the 0172 1 record, as well. 2 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there any objection? 3 Being none, so ordered. 4 (Affidavit of Shirley J. Bell marked JMSC 5 Exhibit Number 42, for identification.) 6 MS. GOLDSMITH: The second affidavit is from 7 Ms. Patricia Johnson, who was a teacher at the minor 8 child's day care. Ms. Johnson states that she also has 9 never spoken with Ms. Haydel concerning the minor child. 10 And I would also ask that that be marked as an exhibit. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there an objection? 12 Being none, so ordered. 13 (Affidavit of Patricia Johnson marked JMSC 14 Exhibit Number 43, for identification.) 15 MS. GOLDSMITH: Ms. Johnson is another teacher 16 at the day care. She is also, I believe, the assistant 17 director of the day care. This affidavit provides that 18 Ms. Johnita Johnson spoke with someone about the minor 19 child and how he was adjusting in day care and how he 20 seemed happy, but Ms. Johnson did not remember the name 21 of the person with whom she spoke. At this time I'd ask 22 that that one, that affidavit be marked as an exhibit, 23 as well. 24 SENATOR McCONNELL: Is there an objection? So 25 ruled. 0173 1 (Affidavit of Johnita Johnson marked JMSC 2 Exhibit Number 44, for identification.) 3 MS. GOLDSMITH: After I received the complaint 4 from Ms. Halmon, I spoke with Ms. Haydel concerning it. 5 And Ms. Haydel asserts that she properly investigated 6 this case and made recommendations to the Court based on 7 the best interests of the minor child, as she was 8 required to do as a guardian ad litem for the five years 9 that she served as such. 10 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 11 Q Ms. Halmon, is there anything you would like 12 to add at this time? 13 A Yes. The minor child had been in foster care 14 probably for three or four years, and before that he was 15 in a foster home. I believe she was his guardian ad 16 litem at that point, but I can't attest to that fact. I 17 can only speak for the time that he was in my care. 18 When he came into care with me, my first court 19 appearance with Ms. Haydel, she just showed up. She 20 never said anything, never spoke, nothing. She was just 21 there. So at that point I thought she was going to come 22 talk to me, talk to his day care provider, talk to 23 somebody who was with the minor child on a day-to-day 24 basis who could give some insight into how the minor 25 child suffered from insecurities and different things so 0174 1 she could kind of tell the Court what the minor child 2 needed, what was best for the minor child. I can't 3 imagine how she could arrive at what was best for the 4 minor child when she never spoke to me, not once, she 5 never asked to speak to the minor child, not once. At 6 school she never went to his school, she never went to 7 the day care, she never spoke with anyone who knew the 8 minor child. 9 Being employed by DSS, I was aware that she 10 was supposed to be the minor child's voice. She was 11 never the minor child's voice. Yet she was in court 12 making recommendations on a child she had never set eyes 13 on. If we brought four children in here, she couldn't 14 pick the minor child out. She never met the minor 15 child. She never came to my home. She knew my address, 16 she knew where I lived. All this was in every court 17 document, where I lived, everything regarding the minor 18 child, where he went to school, everything she had in 19 her possession. 20 We looked for her, the school looked for her, 21 but yet she was in court making recommendations for the 22 minor child when she never talked to anybody that knew 23 the minor child. So if she was to truly be the minor 24 child's voice, the minor child's voice was never ever 25 heard. 0175 1 So when we got to court, of course the judge 2 made a decision. Ms. Haydel -- even if I had been ruled 3 against, if I had just felt that Ms. Haydel could speak 4 for the minor child, I would have been okay. I knew the 5 minor child was cared for. I took care of the minor 6 child. I love him. But she was to be his voice, not 7 me, not DSS. Ms. Haydel was to be his voice. She was 8 never his voice. And because she was never his voice, I 9 felt like the minor child was treated unfairly. 10 I said it in the courts. I said, the minor 11 child was made a victim once. Instead of saying 12 something in support of the minor child, even not in 13 support of the minor child, she said that the minor 14 child was not a victim. If the minor child wasn't a 15 victim, who was the victim? He was the child in foster 16 care. He was the victim. And I thought the courts 17 appointed her to help him. I wasn't to speak for the 18 minor child, DSS wasn't. Ms. Haydel was. How can you 19 speak for a child that you don't know? How can you 20 speak for a child that you never met? 21 It was always clear she could come see me. 22 DSS allowed me to have free time. Any time that she 23 wanted to interview me, to see the minor child, the 24 minor child's mother waited for her to talk to him. We 25 all waited, we all hoped, we all prayed that she would 0176 1 talk to somebody who knew the minor child, but she never 2 did. 3 So when the court said to pay for her 4 services, if she was getting paid for coming to court, 5 then it was justified. But if she was getting paid for 6 services rendered to the minor child, what service did 7 she render? What service did she render the minor 8 child? The minor child never had a voice. It wasn't 9 that the minor child wasn't cared for. Anybody who 10 knows the minor child, the school would tell you, I am 11 the strongest advocate for the minor child. If I was 12 going to be the advocate, why was she being paid? 13 I guess the thing that probably hurt me the 14 most, it hurt me so badly, the minor child is so 15 insecure. And when I went to court, I tried to convince 16 the judge the minor child was insecure. The minor child 17 had been in the same day care all his life, the same day 18 care. He did not move. I didn't want the minor child 19 moved. DSS had agreed they would pay this day care for 20 me. I wanted Ms. Haydel to go in that day care and see 21 he needed to remain there. This was the first security 22 the minor child had known. He knew that day care. He 23 flourished there. I didn't want him moved. I made it 24 clear to Ms. Haydel and to everybody, this would be a 25 financial burden on me to pay this day care. If 0177 1 Ms. Haydel could have convinced the Court that this is 2 good for the minor child, but she didn't know what was 3 right for the minor child because she never tried to 4 find out, yet you're in court making all these 5 recommendations. 6 So if you're wanting to be a judge, if you're 7 making recommendations based on what, on nothing, I 8 would hate to go before you when you've heard nothing 9 about me and you're going to make recommendations for 10 me. I can speak for myself. He is a child. He is a 11 mere child, but he never had a voice. And the sad thing 12 was the minor child is going to be okay, but there might 13 be another child that is not okay simply because the 14 guardian ad litem didn't do her job. 15 And really in doing the research I found that 16 guardians ad litem as a whole don't do their job. 17 Ms. Haydel is a fine person, but as a guardian ad litem, 18 she failed him. She failed him miserably. I'm not 19 angry, but it's very painful for me to realize that I 20 have to go to court to try to be a grandmother and a 21 guardian ad litem. Of course, I was prejudiced because 22 this was my grandchild and I loved him. I couldn't give 23 an unbiased opinion, but she could. And that's what I 24 want her to do. Even if she had said to the judge, this 25 shouldn't be, I would have been okay because I would 0178 1 have known that she cared, that she tried. But she 2 never tried. The minor child never ever had a voice. 3 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you, Ms. Halmon. I 4 don't have any further questions for you, but someone on 5 the Commission may. 6 SENATOR McCONNELL: Any members? Senator from 7 Charleston, Senator Ford. 8 BY SENATOR FORD: 9 Q What was Ms. Haydel's recommendation to the 10 judge? 11 A This is the thing. Nothing. She said that I 12 was trying to paint the minor child a victim. This is 13 the thing, she didn't do anything for the minor child. 14 She attacked me instead. She said I was in court trying 15 to make the minor child a victim. And she said DSS had 16 no obligation to -- it was just an attack on me. We 17 wasn't there about me. We were there about the minor 18 child. 19 Q What did the judge rule? 20 A He said that DSS could close the case and 21 offer no further services to the minor child. My 22 argument was you've got a drug-addicted mother and an 23 irresponsible father. 24 Q The mother was on drugs? 25 A Yeah. And she didn't do what she was supposed 0179 1 to do. Neither did my son. 2 Q Was the judge aware of that? 3 A Yeah, very much, very much aware. And the 4 minor child should have remained with me, no question 5 about it. My concern is not so much the judge ruled 6 against me, but Ms. Haydel didn't do her job. 7 Q Did the judge ever ask her if she made contact 8 with these people? 9 A No. 10 Q The judge never asked her? 11 A No, never asked her anything. She got up and 12 made a speech. And that's why I said, to me, I can't 13 figure how the minor child's poor little voice got lost, 14 because when we were in court, to me it turned out to 15 never be about the minor child. It turned out to be 16 about me painting the minor child as a victim. If the 17 minor child wasn't a victim, who was? 18 I think the judge, because she didn't say 19 anything, he just assumed all was well, even though I'll 20 admit I should have participated. I fought hard to try 21 and get the judge to listen. But the very person who 22 was to be this child's voice didn't speak. 23 Q Let me ask you a question. You said the judge 24 was aware of the fact that the mother was on drugs? 25 A Yes. 0180 1 Q He was aware of that? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And he was aware of the father's condition? 4 A Right. 5 Q Who was the judge? 6 A Judge Gable Moore. 7 Q Is that one of our judges? 8 MS. GOLDSMITH: It should have been a Family 9 Court judge. 10 SENATOR FORD: Was it a Family Court judge? 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Not before us today. 12 SENATOR FORD: Oh, but he's one of our judges? 13 THE WITNESS: This was in Barnwell County. 14 SENATOR McCONNELL: It was in South Carolina. 15 THE WITNESS: This is what was so shocking to 16 me. The judge knows all this stuff. 17 BY SENATOR FORD: 18 Q How did you know the judge knew the mother was 19 on drugs? 20 A This was part of the court file, and the judge 21 has the court file. And thing was the judge should have 22 been aware that she was supposed to speak with this 23 mother. Guardian ad litem duties are very clear. You 24 speak with all parties involved, the mother, the person 25 who has the child, the child, anybody who comes in 0181 1 contact with the child. None of these people were 2 spoken to, not one. Not one not once. She never 3 contacted any of them. 4 Ms. Johnson said she couldn't remember that 5 phone call, and I can't say who it was. But she -- if 6 she had just spoke with one person regarding the minor 7 child, just one, I probably wouldn't have been so hurt 8 by all of this. But being a part of DSS, I knew what 9 her duties were, and she never spoke with anybody, 10 except to show up in court. That was it. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Does anybody else have any 12 questions? 13 I want to thank you for coming and your 14 willingness to testify. It obviously takes courage and 15 determination. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 SENATOR McCONNELL: And I know you operate out 18 of concern. And I want to thank you again for taking 19 the time. Please have a seat and we will just continue. 20 Sit back there comfortably and we will continue the 21 hearing. 22 (Witness excused.) 23 MS. GOLDSMITH: Ms. Haydel. 24 D'ANNE HAYDEL, being previously duly sworn, 25 testified as follows: 0182 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 3 Q Would you like to offer a response to 4 Ms. Halmon's complaint and allegations here today? 5 A I would. But as they say, I have a 6 housekeeping matter. The person that she's referring to 7 is a minor child. This is an abuse and neglect case 8 from DSS. It's covered by confidentiality. That's fine 9 if Ms. Halmon wants to name herself, but I would 10 appreciate if the record would not reflect the name of 11 the minor child. 12 SENATOR FORD: Say that again. 13 THE WITNESS: I would appreciate it if the 14 record will not reflect the name of the minor child. 15 SENATOR McCONNELL: In accordance with my 16 understanding of the law, this record will not reflect 17 that and I would ask the court reporter to make that 18 adjustment in the recollection that it only be named as 19 a minor and nothing more. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Now, if I can get to 21 the second housekeeping matter. I did speak with 22 Ms. Goldsmith about this matter. I remembered it as if 23 it was yesterday when she called to tell me about it. 24 SENATOR FORD: Who is Ms. Goldsmith? 25 THE WITNESS: Ms. Goldsmith is the lawyer 0183 1 seated at the end. She was the one who gave me the bad 2 news that they were going to need an affidavit from me. 3 This is an unusual matter, and actually you 4 get to find out if I'm a very good researcher or not, 5 because what you will note is that on the witness 6 affidavits, you have the witnesses are waiving their 7 attorney-client privilege, but there is no 8 attorney-client privilege here. I was not an attorney 9 in the case, I was a guardian. Ms. Halmon was not my 10 client. She was a relative of a minor child. 11 As anybody who is a lawyer knows, if a client 12 makes allegations against you, the Code of Professional 13 Responsibility allows you to dispute that. That is not 14 true as to a guardian ad litem in an abuse and neglect 15 case. One of the reasons I know that is because if 16 you'll look at my materials, you'll see that I have 17 actually had a reporter disclosed by Court Order. And I 18 had to do a lot of research on it because it is a very 19 touchy situation, as is the information that you learn 20 in the process of being a guardian ad litem in an abuse 21 and neglect case. 22 So what I want to tell you is, as early as law 23 school, lawyers wanted to survey the terrain for those 24 bright lines and safe harbors. There is a real big 25 bright line here, and that is for the good of a child in 0184 1 an abuse and neglect case, there is confidentiality that 2 is so stiff, our legislature has seen fit not to give a 3 safe harbor to a guardian ad litem to defend themselves. 4 And I found it very interesting when I went through the 5 list of all the times you could -- there is not a thing 6 in there about a guardian ad litem. 7 So I am a little bit in between a rock and a 8 hard place because I do respect the law of the State of 9 South Carolina, and it does not give me the right to go 10 ahead and sit down and talk about what happened in this 11 case. I have my case file with me. I can tell you that 12 Ms. Halmon is wrong. And I would use a stronger word 13 than that, especially regarding talking with her. In my 14 file there are original notes from discussions I had 15 with her. I was named as a guardian on April 2nd. As 16 early as April 4th, I was interviewing people. I have 17 all of my guardian ad litem reports. Which 18 interestingly enough, if you look at the Order that she 19 submitted to this body, the lawyer in the case was Ed 20 Dickson, who I believe you all saw right before me. And 21 I was joking around with Ed out there, saying, "Did you 22 realize a complaint was filed against me and not you," 23 when in fact when this case went from Orangeburg County 24 to Bamberg County, I was the only one who volunteered to 25 go with it. Everybody else had an appointment because 0185 1 these are mandated appointments. But you don't have to 2 take them outside your county. I was the only one that 3 went to the other county. And I did so because they 4 changed the DSS case worker in this case probably three 5 times; this child had been with his mother, in foster 6 care, with his mother in inpatient drug rehabilitation, 7 come back out, been with the mother living in regular 8 conditions, and finally went to Ms. Halmon after there 9 was an incident much later on. I was the only person 10 who followed that case all the way through, and I did it 11 because I am dedicated to being a guardian ad litem to 12 children in abuse and neglect cases. 13 I will tell you that I am not qualified, I'm 14 conflicted out of criminal matters because I represent 15 the Sheriff's Office and the Detention Center. So all 16 of my appointments, all these years that they've been 17 mandated by the Supreme Court, have been abuse and 18 neglect cases before DSS. I know the rules. I not only 19 abide by the rules, I go way beyond the rules. In fact, 20 I asked Ed if he would make the same complaint here 21 against me that he used to make in Family Court, and 22 that is she has too many footnotes in the guardian ad 23 litem, because I think these are important matters and 24 somebody needs to look into them. 25 So I would make two other points. The first 0186 1 point being in a guardian ad litem situation in an abuse 2 and neglect case, particularly if you look at the 3 statute, you do not have to ever visit the child, but I 4 make it my job to do so. The number of visits I make 5 depend on the situation. In this case the situation 6 wasn't about the child, as Ms. Halmon said, it was about 7 whether or not it was a safe place for the child to be, 8 and that was with the mother. 9 SENATOR FORD: Can I speak? 10 SENATOR McCONNELL: Yes. 11 BY SENATOR FORD: 12 Q Were you aware of the fact that the young 13 lady, the child's mother was on drugs? 14 A Absolutely. 15 Q But that wouldn't be a safe place for the 16 child, right? 17 A Absolutely not. 18 Q Explain that to me. Explain, was the child 19 with the mother? 20 A I have to be so careful with this. 21 Q No, no, no. Just answer. 22 A The child was with the mother at the time the 23 child was taken into protective custody. The complaint, 24 although I will not reveal the complainant, the 25 complaint was that the mother was taking the baby -- he 0187 1 was seven months old at that time -- to drugs dens. 2 Q To what? 3 A To drug dens. The mother did test positive 4 for casual use of marijuana. Now, I know marijuana is 5 marijuana, but -- drug dens and casual use of marijuana 6 seem to be inconsistent with me. 7 In speaking with the complainant, who was 8 self-proclaimed, the complainant told me that she had a 9 very good background with DSS, and that's the reason 10 that she had made the complaint was because she didn't 11 think the mother kept her house appropriately, but that 12 she knew in experience with -- 13 SENATOR McCONNELL: Let me interrupt for a 14 minute and ask the Commissioners and the witness, out of 15 caution, be careful about violating the confidentiality 16 under the statute and address the main issue of whether 17 you did a due and diligent review. I think the elements 18 of the review, not the findings, are what would lend 19 import to this body. If any Commissioner disagrees with 20 me, please speak up now. 21 SENATOR FORD: I agree. 22 BY SENATOR FORD: 23 Q Can you answer that question? 24 A Yes. 25 SENATOR McCONNELL: Do you understand the 0188 1 parameters? You're not going to be penalized in any 2 way. Do not feel obligated to go into the details. 3 Instead, questions should be focused on the methodology 4 by which you did a due and diligent and did you in fact 5 make contacts and things. 6 THE WITNESS: The law does not require the 7 guardian ad litem to ever interview a child in an abuse 8 and neglect case. That is different from a private 9 guardian ad litem. I do, and I do that routinely. I 10 did that in this case. 11 BY SENATOR FORD: 12 Q You did what, interview the child? 13 A I did see the child. You can't interview a 14 child that's this young, but you can watch interactions 15 of the child with various parties. 16 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 17 Q How young is "this young"? 18 A When the child came in, he was seven months 19 old. 20 Q I know that, but at the time you are 21 conducting your investigation, was the child three. Was 22 the child eight months old? How old, is my question. 23 A Seven months. 24 Q He was only seven months old? 25 A He was seven months, and by the end of the 0189 1 case -- he was born almost the same time as my daughter. 2 MS. GOLDSMITH: I believe he would have been 3 five. 4 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 5 Q At the time of the hearing, how old was the 6 child? 7 A I would say he was either four or five. 8 BY SENATOR FORD: 9 Q So you talked to the child. What about all 10 these people she talked about? 11 A I do not go to schools to visit. I'll tell 12 you why I don't do that, because I actually 13 represented -- 14 Q How would you know about the child before the 15 judge if you don't try to keep up with the child? 16 A Because I interview all the family members, 17 I've watched the child interact with their parents and 18 with the person with whom the child is staying, 19 including in this case the foster parent that had the 20 child immediately after the child was taken. This is 21 not a special-needs child, it's a special-needs mother. 22 BY SENATOR McCONNELL: 23 Q Was this review or these types of reviews done 24 in the latter years of this child's age, if you follow 25 what I'm -- 0190 1 A No, sir, I do not. 2 Q I'm asking, if the child was around four or 3 five years of age, did your reviews and things span over 4 that time? Did you watch interaction and things when 5 the child was like age four or five? 6 A I watched the child until he was about age 7 four. I did not watch the child after that because 8 there was not a case after that. The case was 9 reactivated after another incident and I rejoined the 10 matter. At that time there were other allegations that 11 made it clear that the child now needed to be in a 12 stable environment other than with the mother. 13 MS. GOLDSMITH: I have no other questions. 14 SENATOR McCONNELL: Any questions? Professor 15 Freeman. 16 BY PROF. FREEMAN: 17 Q I have a question not concerning the child. 18 But you talked about a case that you worked on, it 19 sounded like it was a complex case where there were a 20 lot of lawyers on the other side. Maybe I misunderstood 21 you. You mentioned the judge was on the other side, 22 too. 23 A Oh, not a complex case, no, sir, it was not. 24 This is a case in which three lawyers did show up for 25 the other side. 0191 1 Q Okay. 2 A It was not a complex matter, not in the least. 3 Q Was that here, in South Carolina? 4 A Yes, sir, it was. 5 Q Who was the judge? 6 A I'd actually rather not say. 7 Q Let me just say something here, just so you 8 understand and I want the record to reflect this. When 9 we start talking about judges being unfair, and that 10 that charge was made in this hearing by a witness, I 11 think it is appropriate to ask who we're talking about 12 and ask for specifics, and that's why I did it. 13 BY SENATOR FORD: 14 Q Who was the judge? How are you going to have 15 the system improve if you don't help us? You made it 16 clear that you were interested in the system. You 17 wanted to clean it up and help us with the system. So 18 who was the judge? 19 A It was an Administrative Law judge, and it was 20 a tax appeal case. You're going to have to forgive me 21 because I do not remember his last name. Can I give you 22 his first name? 23 Q Let me ask you a question. You feel that you 24 rendered the best possible advice to the judge in this 25 particular case with the young child? 0192 1 A Oh, yes. 2 Q And the advice was based on you interviewing 3 the people that she said you did not interview and 4 everything else? Is that the case? 5 A I did interview them. 6 Q But not the people at the day care and not the 7 grandmother? 8 A No, sir. I did speak with the grandmother 9 from the beginning of the case all the way through to 10 the end. 11 SENATOR McCONNELL: Are there any other 12 questions? Counsel, anything further? 13 MS. GOLDSMITH: I just have some housekeeping 14 issues to take care of. 15 SENATOR McCONNELL: Proceed. 16 BY MS. GOLDSMITH: 17 Q Ms. Haydel, have you sought or received the 18 pledge of any legislator prior to today? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 21 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 22 the outcome of your screening? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 25 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 0193 1 A No. 2 Q Have you contacted any members of the 3 Commission? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you understand that you are prohibited from 6 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 7 formal release of the Commission's report? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 10 on pledging? 11 A Yes. 12 Q As a reminder, the penalty for violating the 13 pledging rules is a conviction of a misdemeanor and a 14 fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment of not more 15 than 90 days. 16 A Yes. 17 MS. GOLDSMITH: Finally, I would note for the 18 Commission that the Lowcountry Citizens Committee 19 reported that Ms. Haydel meets the Constitutional 20 Qualifications for the judicial position she seeks. The 21 persons interviewed by the committee indicated that 22 Ms. Haydel is considered ethical. The committee gave 23 Ms. Haydel a good rating in the area of professional and 24 academic ability. The committee reported that 25 Ms. Haydel's character is unquestionable. The committee 0194 1 reported that Ms. Haydel enjoyed a good reputation in 2 the community and among her peers. The committee 3 reported that there is evidence that Ms. Haydel is 4 physically and mentally capable of performing the duties 5 required of a judge of the Circuit Court. The committee 6 recognized Ms. Haydel's good legal experience in the 7 civil arena, and the committee gave Ms. Haydel a good 8 rating in the category of judicial temperament. 9 I would just note for the record that any 10 concerns raised during the investigation regarding 11 Ms. Haydel were incorporated into the questioning of her 12 today. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you. Does any 14 member of the Commission have any questions of 15 Ms. Haydel? 16 Ms. Haydel, we'd like to thank you for 17 appearing before us today. I would remind you about the 18 48-hour rule, which I'm sure you're well aware of. Once 19 we've issued the report, 48 hours, it turns into the -- 20 it's first a draft report and 48 hours later it turns 21 into the report. You cannot get commitments, seek 22 commitments yourself or have anyone else seek 23 commitments for you until that time. And the reason for 24 that is if we would choose to bring you back before us 25 for another public hearing, we could do that. This 0195 1 today ends your public hearing part of your screening in 2 all probability. 3 After having told you all that, I'd like to 4 thank you for being here and I hope you and your family 5 have a safe trip back home. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 (Witness excused.) 8 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Ms. Halmon, thank you for 9 taking your time out to testify before us today also. I 10 hope you have a safe trip back. 11 MS. HALMON: Thank you for hearing me. 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We have before us today 13 Mr. James Benjamin Jackson, Junior, who seeks a position 14 on the Circuit Court, First Judicial Circuit, Seat 15 Number 1. If you would, Mr. Jackson, please raise your 16 right hand to be sworn. 17 JAMES B. JACKSON, JR., being first duly sworn, 18 testified as follows: 19 EXAMINATION 20 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The Judicial Merit 21 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 22 qualifications for the Bench. Our inquiry has primarily 23 focused on nine evaluative criteria which has included a 24 survey of the Bench and Bar, thorough study of your 25 application materials, verification of your compliance 0196 1 with state ethics laws, a search of newspaper articles 2 in which your name may have appeared, a study of any 3 previous screenings, and a check of economic conflicts 4 of interest. 5 We have not received any affidavits filed in 6 opposition to your candidacy. There are no witnesses 7 here to testify. Do you have a brief opening statement 8 you'd like to make at this time? 9 THE WITNESS: I'll waive that. I want to tell 10 you my wife is here with me, Cynthia Jackson. I would 11 waive the other stuff. 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We are pleased to have you 13 with us. 14 MRS. JACKSON: Thank you for having me here. 15 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, ma'am. 16 With that, please answer any questions our 17 counsel may have. 18 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman and members of the 19 Commission, I have a few procedural matters to take care 20 of. 21 BY MR. GENTRY: 22 Q Mr. Jackson, is the document that is going to 23 be handed to you the Personal Data Questionnaire you 24 submitted as part of your application? 25 A I have. 0197 1 Q Is there any amendment you'd like to make at 2 this time to your PDQ? 3 A Yes, sir. I realized in the one question, 4 when I note in my practice of what percentage were 5 things, it didn't add up to a hundred. 25 should have 6 been 65, so I have this amendment. 7 MR. GENTRY: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I'd 8 ask that Mr. Jackson's Personal Data Questionnaire and 9 amendment be entered as exhibits into the hearing 10 record. 11 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any objections? Without 12 objection, the Personal Data Questionnaire with any 13 amendment will be entered into the record at this time 14 and this point in the transcript. 15 (JMSC PDQ for James B. Jackson, Jr. marked 16 JMSC Exhibit Number 45, for identification.) 17 (James B. Jackson, Jr. Amendment to PDQ marked 18 JMS Exhibit Number 46, for identification.) 19 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Jackson also provided a sworn 20 statement with detailed answers to over 30 questions 21 regarding judicial conduct, statutory qualifications, 22 office administration and temperament. That statement 23 was provided to all Commission members earlier and is 24 included in your notebooks. I have no concerns with 25 this statement. And with the Commission's approval, I'd 0198 1 ask that those questions be waived in the public hearing 2 today. 3 BY MR. GENTRY: 4 Q Mr. Jackson, also before you is the document 5 that is your sworn statement you submitted as part of 6 your application. Is there any amendment you'd like to 7 make at this time to your sworn statement? 8 A No, sir. 9 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any objection to be 10 included in the record? Without objection, the sworn 11 statement will be entered into the record at this time 12 at this point in the transcript. 13 (Sworn Statement of James B. Jackson, Jr. 14 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 47, for identification.) 15 MR. GENTRY: One final procedural matter. I 16 note for the record that based on the testimony 17 contained in the candidate's PDQ, which has been 18 included in the record with the candidate's consent, 19 Mr. Jackson meets the statutory requirements for this 20 position regarding age, residence and years of practice. 21 BY MR. GENTRY: 22 Q Mr. Jackson, why do you want to serve as a 23 Circuit Court judge? 24 A I have been practicing law for about 28 years 25 now, and I frankly remember as a child wanting to grow 0199 1 up to be a judge. That's one of the things I always 2 considered would be a great job to have, something I 3 felt like I could do and do very well. I've had a 4 varied practice for 28 years now. My children are grown 5 and out of the house, both married. And I think that I 6 could do the State a good job by being a Circuit Court 7 judge. I've been in court a good bit myself. And this 8 is a position that I think is an honored position, a 9 position that I'd like to have. I feel that I can serve 10 and do a good job. 11 Q Regarding your experience as it relates to 12 your candidacy today, can you explain to the Commission 13 how you feel your legal and professional experience thus 14 far will help you be an effective Circuit Court judge? 15 A Yes, sir, I'll be glad to. I was a public 16 defender in Orangeburg for about three and a half years. 17 That was a part-time position back in the 1980s. As 18 such, I tried a large number of criminal cases, was 19 involved in court, got to know a lot of judges during 20 that time. 21 In 1988, I became a full-time assistant 22 solicitor in the First Judicial Circuit, and worked for 23 two years in that position, and again tried numerous 24 cases from the prosecution side. So I feel that that's 25 given me a lot of experience in the criminal end of the 0200 1 court in general sessions. 2 In 1990, I became a partner with the firm of 3 Yarborough, Hutto and Jackson. Our practice was a 4 gentleman named Paul Yarborough, who was a member of 5 this body back in the '50s, '60s and early '70s, and a 6 gentleman named Ronnie Hutto. I was sort of the 7 litigator of the firm. I did a lot of insurance 8 defense, insurance reserve fund work defending 9 governmental agencies, the Highway Department in our 10 area. I tried a number of cases doing that kind of 11 work. 12 And also over these years I've tried cases 13 from the plaintiff's point of view, automobile wreck 14 cases and real estate type of litigation, as well. I've 15 appeared in just about every court that you can appear 16 in. I feel that that experience over 28 years has given 17 me a great deal of time in court. It qualifies me to be 18 a good circuit judge. I've done it from just about 19 every angle you can do it from and feel like I have a 20 pretty good view of how a court ought to be run, in an 21 efficient manner, and I'd like to have that opportunity. 22 Q Are there any additional areas that you feel 23 you need to further prepare for? And if so, what would 24 be those areas and how would you go about preparing? 25 A I really feel like that over my career, I'm 0201 1 pretty well qualified for this position. I'm certainly 2 not perfect in any stretch of the imagination. There 3 are certain areas that I don't know very well. I've 4 never done a lot of workers' compensation. However, the 5 workers' comp stuff would come to me on appeal, and that 6 would be a little bit different, and that would be 7 something I would need to learn. But beyond that, I 8 think I'm fairly well qualified and experienced and 9 ready to handle most anything that comes along. 10 Q Although you address this in your sworn 11 affidavit, would you please tell the members of the 12 Commission what you think is the appropriate demeanor of 13 a judge? 14 A You know, I think a judge is more than just 15 what you do in the courtroom. I've tried to conduct 16 myself as a lawyer to be the type of person whose word 17 can be relied on. And if you practice law with somebody 18 like Paul Yarborough, that's what you learn. I think 19 other lawyers will tell you my word is good and I try to 20 conduct myself professionally at all times in a manner 21 that is honest and forthright. I'm not one to beat 22 around the bush. Pretty much you know where I stand on 23 things. I think that's the kind of judge that I would 24 wand to be. 25 I think that also your personal life is 0202 1 important. Again, I'm not somebody that would embarrass 2 anybody about anything that I would do outside of the 3 courtroom. I'm not going to give you any kind of 4 trouble or do anything that is going to bring into 5 question my ability to serve the Court and act in the 6 role of judge. And so I think your whole life 7 experience is something that's important for a judge to 8 think about and conduct himself in a manner where you're 9 just not brought into question your honesty and your 10 ability to serve in a fair and impartial manner. 11 Q In your PDQ you indicated that in 1986 you 12 were sued by a client in your capacity as public 13 defender. Can you explain to the Commission the nature 14 of the lawsuit and its outcome? 15 A Yes, sir. Again, I was appointed to this 16 gentleman as a public defender. He and two others were 17 charged with breaking into a house and stealing some 18 jewelry and silver and that sort of thing out of the 19 house. He actually was caught first. He confessed and 20 told the police who the other two were and they were 21 caught later. And then all three of them pled guilty, 22 but my client got the worst sentence. He got a 23 five-year sentence. One of the others got three years, 24 and the last one got a year. 25 My client felt that that was unfair. And he 0203 1 chose that the thing he needed to do was sue me over it. 2 I reported it to the malpractice carrier and it was 3 dismissed on summary judgment. There really wasn't 4 anything to it. That was the route he chose to take. 5 He felt like the judge gave him a harsher sentence than 6 he should have. Of course, there wasn't a whole lot I 7 could do about it. 8 Q What suggestions would you offer for improving 9 the backlog of cases on the docket in Circuit Court, for 10 both Common Pleas and General Session? 11 A Well, as far as Common Pleas is concerned, I 12 am a mediator. I am a relatively new mediator. I've 13 done some of it, and I've been successful more often 14 than not. Probably in about 60 percent of the eight or 15 10 cases that I've mediated, we were able to reach a 16 settlement. I think that's a good way to do it. 17 I also think that judicial intervention is 18 important. I think what happens a lot of times is cases 19 are filed and then they're forgotten about by the 20 lawyers until all of the sudden they come up on the 21 docket where they're ready for trial a year, year and a 22 half, two years later. I think more staff conferences 23 would be appropriate for the chief administrative judge 24 to go over where these cases are, to make sure the 25 discovery and everything is moving along. And I think 0204 1 judicial intervention also has a tendency to put the 2 judge in the same room with the lawyers and settlement 3 becomes much more of a possibility. That's one of the 4 things a judge can talk to them about. 5 So I think between having more status 6 conferences and more mediation -- we're in a circuit 7 where mediation is not required, but probably having 8 mediation all over the state would be good. 9 As far as General Sessions is concerned, I 10 think you've just got to get the solicitor and public 11 defenders, again, to more status conferences, what's 12 going on with this case, are you ready to try this case 13 or that case, just trying to stay on top of it as the 14 chief administrative judge. 15 Q If you were elected to the Bench, what would 16 you like your legacy to be as a judge on the Circuit 17 Court? 18 A You know, the First Circuit has a real good 19 strong legacy of excellent judges. I happened to know 20 both Judge Brailsford and Judge Rosen who were our 21 judges for many years back in the '30s or '40s. I got 22 to meet both those gentlemen before they died. Judge 23 Rosen, when I started practicing law, actually still 24 came to the courthouse. And I'd go up and talk to him 25 and he would give me some advice. He was a wonderful, 0205 1 wonderful judge. Judge Brailsford was on the Supreme 2 Court in the '40s and '50s here in South Carolina. He 3 was a highly respected judge. We had John Henry Smith, 4 followed by Charles Wetstone, and followed by Judy 5 Williams and Diane Goodstein, who is also a Circuit 6 judge. All of them are excellent judges, very well 7 thought of in the legal community. And I think this 8 seat carries with it a responsibility to be that kind of 9 judge. And that's the kind of judge I want to be, just 10 to continue to keep our circuit well thought of in terms 11 of how judges are coming out of our circuit. 12 Q Thank you, Mr. Jackson. Have you sought or 13 received a pledge of any legislator prior to this date? 14 A No, sir, I have not. 15 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 16 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 17 the outcome of your screening? 18 A No, sir, I have not. 19 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 20 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 21 A I have talked to people that perhaps if they 22 wanted to, they could contact folks, but I warned them 23 that they could not ask for them to vote for me or ask 24 them to make a commitment, they could only recommend 25 that I might be somebody who would make a good judge. 0206 1 Q Have you contacted any members of the 2 Commission? 3 A No, I haven't. 4 Q Do you understand that you're prohibited from 5 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 6 formal release of the Commission's report? 7 A Yes, sir, I am well aware. 8 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 9 on pledging? 10 A Yes, sir, I have. 11 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of the penalties 12 for violating the pledging rules, that is it is a 13 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the violator must be 14 fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 15 90 days? 16 A I wasn't really aware of the penalties. I 17 wasn't planning on violating it anyway, but I do know 18 there were penalties. 19 MR. GENTRY: I would note that the Lowcountry 20 Citizens Committee reported the following regarding 21 Mr. Jackson. Mr. Jackson meets the Constitutional 22 Qualifications for the judicial position he seeks. 23 Persons interviewed by the committee indicated that 24 Mr. Jackson is considered ethical. The committee gave 25 Mr. Jackson a good rating in the area of professional 0207 1 and academic ability. The committee reported that 2 Mr. Jackson's character is unquestionable. Mr. Jackson 3 enjoys a good reputation in the community and among his 4 peers. There is evidence that Mr. Jackson is physically 5 and mentally capable of performing the duties required 6 of the judge in Circuit Court. And the committee 7 recognized Mr. Jackson's diverse legal experience. And 8 the committee gave Mr. Jackson a good rating in the 9 judicial temperament category. 10 I would note for the record that any concerns 11 raised during the investigation regarding the candidate 12 were incorporated into the questioning of the candidate 13 today. 14 Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. 15 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Does any member of the 16 Commission have any questions for Mr. Jackson? Yes, 17 sir. 18 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 19 Q Mr. Jackson, you've been in the courtroom 20 quite a bit. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q What time is court supposed to start? 23 A It sort of depends on the judge. Historically 24 it always started at 10:00. A lot of judges start at 25 9:30. Some start at 9:00. I would intend to start 0208 1 somewhere in the range of 9:00 or 9:30. 2 Q Why would your day start somewhere around 9:00 3 or 9:30? 4 A Well, I think that allows generally people to 5 get to the courthouse. You've got to think about jurors 6 getting there, lawyers having an opportunity to go to 7 their law office, I think, first and then come to court. 8 A lot of times they like to do that. I think, for 9 jurors getting to court, for the most part historically 10 they started around 10:00. 11 Q What time historically did it end? 12 A Generally around 5:00 or 5:30. My experience 13 is to that extent. I've certainly been in court later 14 than that. 15 Q Do you plan to improve the judicial work 16 ethics on the Bench or do you plan on doing the 17 historical? 18 A I would certainly do everything I could to 19 make sure cases got moved. I would work the hours 20 necessary to make sure that happened. Certainly again 21 in terms of my own practice, I very often get to work 22 earlier than 9:00, and I certainly have no -- 23 Q Why do you think a judge should be able to 24 start later? 25 A Well, I'm thinking court would start at 9:00 0209 1 or 9:30. I would probably be there before that, doing 2 administrative things or reviewing, signing Orders, 3 doing those kinds of things. I thought you asked me 4 what time would court start. 5 Q When I say, "court," I'm talking about the 6 judge coming on the bench. You've been in the 7 Solicitor's Office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You've seen judges that are supposed to be 10 there and say, "I'm going to be on the bench and start 11 taking pleas at 9:00," and he gets there at 10:00? 12 A I've experienced that, yes, sir. 13 Q 10:30? 14 A I've experienced that, yes, sir. 15 Q Whenever they wanted to? 16 A I've experienced that. I would not do that. 17 John M. Smith, who was the judge I appeared a good deal 18 before, when he said he was going to be on the bench at 19 9:00, he was there at 9:00. 20 Q He was ready to go? 21 A Yes, sir. That would be -- in particular, 22 when you tell jurors that. If I tell juries to be at 23 the courtroom at 9:00, I'm going to be there at 9:00. 24 Q Have you seen courts that told the juries to 25 be there at 9:00, and they sit there at 9:00, 10:00, 0210 1 10:30, and they're sitting there wondering when the case 2 is going to be heard, and the judge walks in at quarter 3 of 11:00? 4 A I've seen that, yes, sir. 5 Q And then leaves at 12:00 for lunch. 6 A I've seen that. 7 Q Comes back at 2:30. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And then leaves again at 4:00. 10 A I've seen that, again, not on a daily basis. 11 Q But you wouldn't -- 12 A I've seen all of that, yes, sir. 13 Q You wouldn't want to continue that? 14 A No, sir, not at all. Again, I would want to 15 get as much work as I could in a day. Friday is a day 16 that oftentimes not a whole lot gets done. But I would 17 intend to make sure that a lot more gets done on 18 Fridays. 19 Q That was my next question. The work week of a 20 judge is Monday through Friday. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Not Monday through Thursday. 23 A Friday 'til 5:00, as far as I'm concerned. 24 I've had that experience where I've had court stop on 25 Fridays when it could have gone on and I kind of wanted 0211 1 to ask the judge, "Aren't you getting paid to work until 2 5:00 on Friday?" 3 Q Why didn't you ask him that? 4 A I was not at a point in my career that I 5 could -- 6 Q The reason I ask you that question, I have a 7 real strong feeling about the work ethics of our 8 judiciary. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And I want to make sure that the judges that 11 we put on in the future have that understanding, that 12 they're not -- it's not a retirement or a retirement 13 club for lawyers, that our judges are going to be 14 working. And if you don't work as a judge, then it sets 15 back everything from the Solicitor's Office to the 16 jurors to law enforcement, Public Defender's Office. 17 Everything comes to a standstill if you're not on that 18 bench. 19 A I promise you, Senator Knotts, you will not be 20 embarrassed by me creating that problem for you, or for 21 anybody in the legislature. I know where you're coming 22 from and I've seen all of that. It won't happen. 23 Q Everybody's seen it, but nobody wants to do 24 nothing about it. 25 A I promise you that I will. I will do that. 0212 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Ford. 2 BY SENATOR FORD: 3 Q Same type of question, but in the urban areas 4 where I live -- I'm not familiar with the First, but I 5 live in the Ninth. In the Richland area, Lexington area 6 and Greenville, Spartanburg and Florence area, we 7 have -- first of all, South Carolina's got 104,000 8 pending case. I mean, judges are going to have to start 9 realizing that they play a major, major role in that. 10 Now, they're going to have to start working 11 early. You're saying 9:00 and 9:30. I could see 8:00, 12 because unless you all help us solve these problems, in 13 Charleston these guys are committing crime after crime 14 after crime. If y'all don't help us, we're not going to 15 get no help. That's why a lot of things going to have 16 to change. 17 That's why the Senator here is making sure 18 everybody -- he's asking that question to everyone. But 19 somehow y'all are going to have to help us clean up this 20 mess we have with these pending cases. We hate to pick 21 on you, but from now on, that's the way it's got to be. 22 A Again, I would be happy to be part of the 23 solution to that problem. 24 Q The Representatives, they live in rural areas, 25 but in Charleston, you've got serious crime in 0213 1 Charleston. And most of them are caused by people who 2 are waiting to be tried. Y'all have to help us clean 3 that up. 4 A We have serious problems in Orangeburg, too. 5 Q Y'all got purse snatching and stuff like that? 6 We're talking about serious crimes. 7 SENATOR KNOTTS: We cleaned up Orangeburg a 8 couple years ago. We sent a task force in there. That 9 worked. We might do that down in Charleston. Do you 10 want to do that? 11 SENATOR FORD: Yeah. 12 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any other questions? 13 There being none, Mr. Jackson, I'd like to thank you for 14 appearing before us today. 15 Again, I would like to remind you of the 16 48-hour rule. The reason for that is up until we issue 17 a report -- it's first a draft and becomes a report in 18 48 hours -- at that point you can seek commitments or 19 have someone else seek commitments on your behalf. 20 Before that time, if something else came before us and 21 we wanted to reconvene in public hearing, we could 22 reconvene in public hearing and bring you back before 23 us. That is not a likely event, but nevertheless it is 24 a possibility. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 0214 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Having advised you about 2 that, I would like to again thank you and your wife for 3 coming with you and y'all being here, and hope you have 4 a safe trip back. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 6 (Witness excused.) 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Could y'all bring in 8 Mr. Horger, tab number 8? We have before us today 9 Mr. Michael P. Horger. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We have Mr. Michael P. 12 Horger, who is seeking a seat on the Circuit Court, 13 First Judicial Circuit, Seat Number 1. If you would, 14 Mr. Horger, please raise your right hand to be sworn. 15 MICHAEL P. HORGER, being first duly sworn, 16 testified as follows: 17 EXAMINATION 18 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The Judicial Merit 19 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 20 qualifications for the Bench. Our inquiry is focused on 21 nine evaluative criteria which has included a survey of 22 the Bench and Bar, a thorough study of your application 23 materials, a verification of your compliance with state 24 ethics laws, a search of newspaper articles in which 25 your name appears, a study of previous screenings, a 0215 1 check for economic conflicts of interests. 2 We have no affidavits filed in opposition to 3 your election. There are no witnesses here to testify 4 today. Do you have a brief opening statement which you 5 would like to make? 6 THE WITNESS: Very briefly, I want to thank 7 y'all for y'all's time. It's a pleasure for me to be 8 here. I'm looking for an opportunity to be able to run 9 for the First Judicial Circuit, Seat 1. I'm hoping that 10 I have some experience that would make me an appealing 11 candidate for the seat. I look forward to that 12 opportunity. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, sir. At this 14 time please answer any questions our legal counsel may 15 have. 16 THE WITNESS: May I? With the Personal Data 17 Questionnaire, I had an amendment. 18 MS. SHULER: I'm going to handle that. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MS. SHULER: Mr. Chairman and members of the 21 Commission, I have a few procedural matters to take care 22 of. 23 BY MS. SHULER: 24 Q Mr. Horger, the document before you is your 25 original Personal Data Questionnaire you submitted as 0216 1 part of your application. 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q Are there any amendments you would like to 4 make at this time to that document? 5 A Yes, ma'am. I have an addendum to the 6 question 14. I went through some of the experience 7 background under 14(b), but I did not put a chronology 8 of my work experience, so I have a list of firms that I 9 have practiced with since 1977, and I would like to make 10 that addendum part of the record. 11 Q Okay. 12 MS. SHULER: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 13 would ask that Mr. Horger's Personal Data Questionnaire 14 and his amendment be entered into the record as an 15 exhibit. 16 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any objections? There 17 being no objection, the Personal Data Questionnaire will 18 be entered into the record at this time at this point in 19 the transcript. 20 (JMSC PDQ for Michael P. Horger marked JMSC 21 Exhibit Number 48, for identification.) 22 THE WITNESS: I note on number 49, I had made 23 a previous amendment to one of the recommendation 24 letters. 25 MS. SHULER: Do you have a copy of that 0217 1 amendment with you? 2 THE WITNESS: I have -- I do. I just wanted 3 to be clear on that. It may be that I should just 4 substitute that page. 5 MS. SHULER: I would offer that he substitute 6 the page reflecting his answers in number 49 as part of 7 the document as an exhibit. 8 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any objection? Without 9 objection. 10 (Addendum to JMSC PDQ for Michael P. Horger 11 marked JMSC Exhibit Number 49, for identification.) 12 MS. SHULER: Mr. Horger also provided a sworn 13 statement with detailed answers to over 30 questions 14 regarding judicial conduct, statutory qualifications, 15 office administration, and temperament. That statement 16 was provided to all Commission members earlier and is 17 included in your notebooks. I have no concerns with the 18 statement and, with the Commission's approval, I would 19 ask that those questions be waived at the public hearing 20 today. 21 BY MS. SHULER: 22 Q Before you, Mr. Horger, is your sworn 23 statement. Are there any amendments that you would like 24 to make at this time to your sworn statement? 25 A No, there is not. 0218 1 MS. SHULER: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 2 would ask that Mr. Horger's sworn statement be entered 3 as an exhibit into the hearing record. 4 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Objections? Hearing none, 5 it will be done at this point in the transcript. 6 (Sworn Statement of Michael P. Horger marked 7 JMSC Exhibit Number 50, for identification.) 8 MS. SHULER: One final procedural matter. I 9 note for the record that based on the testimony 10 contained in the candidate's PDQ, which has been 11 included in the record with the candidate's consent, 12 Mr. Horger meets the statutory qualifications for this 13 position regarding age, residence and years of practice. 14 BY MS. SHULER: 15 Q Mr. Horger, after practicing law for over 31 16 years, why do you now want to serve as a Circuit Court 17 judge? 18 A I think that in my 31 years of practice, I 19 have obtained some experience in that, in the practice, 20 and not only that, but the experience of the service. 21 And what I've found is that the service has been 22 important to me, it's been challenging to me. I have 23 also served as a member of the House of Delegates, and 24 now on the Board of Governors of South Carolina Bar, and 25 I've found that service to be very rewarding to me. I 0219 1 feel like as a Circuit Court judge I could continue to 2 serve the citizens of South Carolina, the litigants in 3 our court system, the member of the Bar. And I feel 4 like it's a calling to service. 5 Q Thank you, Mr. Horger. Although you address 6 this in your sworn affidavit, could you please tell the 7 members of the Commission what you believe to be the 8 appropriate demeanor for a judge? 9 A I think a judge should be calm, even-handed, 10 and to keep the system, the judicial system, you have to 11 keep the credibility of it so that people have 12 confidence the system is working and it's effective and 13 that they get fair trials. 14 I think a judge has to have good temperament, 15 has to keep control of his temperament at all times and 16 be judicious, be judicial in how he administers the 17 courtroom. 18 Q Thank you. If you're selected to the Bench 19 and after your service, what would you like your legacy 20 to be as a judge on the Circuit Court? 21 A A good one. I hope that people look back on 22 me as a lawyer and say, he's worked hard at it, that he 23 was diligent in doing it. And on the Bench, I would 24 hope that people would look at me and say that he had 25 integrity, had character, and was diligent in performing 0220 1 the job and was able to run a docket and gave fair 2 trials to the litigants in the courtroom. 3 Q What suggestions would you offer for improving 4 the backlog of cases on the docket in the Circuit Court 5 for either Common Pleas and/or General Sessions? 6 A Well, I hope that we've made some strides on 7 that. I think in some civil matters you could move 8 things faster through, and in some more complex cases 9 you have the complex case designation. I think in 10 knowing what tools there are in the rules, in the 11 complex case designation, and utilizing those tools, you 12 can administer a docket and run a docket. 13 I can tell you one thing: About two weeks ago 14 I came to court with a very short case. I told the 15 judge, I said, "Judge, I have a very short half-day 16 case." That Monday morning the judge was trying to set 17 the roster, and I said, "Well, depending on how things 18 line up, I am ready to go at any point in time." 19 The judge went along and said, "Fine. The 20 first case, they want protection money. So we'll go 21 ahead and draw your jury. You try it. Monday afternoon 22 I'll give them protection money." So we flip-flopped. 23 We moved the docket around. I think that was a good 24 technique for the judge to look at and say, I am going 25 to utilize Monday as fully as I can. I'm going to get a 0221 1 case taken care of on Monday, yet I can accommodate 2 these people that are saying we have these issues about 3 starting on Monday. We really would rather start on 4 Tuesday. So what that judge was able to do was 5 accommodate my clients in giving us what we wanted to do 6 in administration of the docket, and also were able to 7 give the other people what they wanted. So they moved 8 two cases, kept the court moving along Monday and 9 Tuesday. 10 And I think one of the key things is keeping a 11 good administrative docket, that you keep the process 12 running, that is turning the cases, that you have the 13 cases that come up and you can move them along. Don't 14 let it break down. And that's a hard task. It's 15 difficult to manage a docket, but that was a prime 16 example, I think, of communication I had with the judge 17 and the judge's communication with us, where we were 18 able to effectively use court time. We had a jury. So 19 let's pick a jury, let's try a case. The judge looking 20 at the case was able to say, I think the lawyers are 21 right. That case is going to be a half-day trial. 22 Let's move it up. They're ready to go. Let's move the 23 other one back. 24 Certainly that's what you do in the civil 25 side. I think in the criminal side, it's just docket 0222 1 management and how you handle that and the way you look 2 at when pleas are taken and who you work the best 3 management of utilizing a jury when you have a jury. I 4 think a concern I have is when juries are there, they 5 wonder what is going on in the process. And sometimes 6 they may take away a sense that it is not an efficient 7 process. And as processes work, sometimes they aren't 8 as efficient as you want, but they are a process and I 9 think we have a good process. 10 Q Thank you, Mr. Horger. In your PDQ you 11 mention two cases in which you were involved. One was 12 in 1994 and one was in 1995. The first was a pro se 13 action by Clarence E. Jones and the second action 14 involved you challenging the action of the Corps of 15 Engineers. Can you briefly explain the nature and 16 disposition of those actions? 17 A The first case that involved Mr. Jones was a 18 case that rose out of a domestic matter. I was not 19 involved in the domestic matter but I had a partner in 20 the law firm that had filed a counterclaim, and it 21 stated that the husband had certain things in the 22 counterclaim that relegated her to a position of a 23 concubine and not a wife. It's maybe not a good choice 24 of words, but in any event, that's in effect what 25 happened. The divorce was granted. And he later took 0223 1 the position that that was a slanderous statement. It 2 was dismissed summarily because the wife's position was 3 that she was not being treated fairly as a wife and she 4 was seeking a divorce because of incompatibility with 5 her husband. So certainly her position was truly 6 stated. But that was summarily dismissed. 7 The other case that dealt with the Corps of 8 Engineers was an issue over a permitting process on the 9 Codes where a state permit was obtained. Later some 10 issues came up with the Corps. There was a lack of 11 discussion going on. We brought the suit. Lawyers got 12 involved, lawyer for me, lawyers on the other side. 13 That was summarily -- not summarily, but quickly 14 dismissed by agreement between the parties. 15 Quite frankly, I was a permit holder in that 16 matter and I was not able to discuss with the Corps 17 representatives, so once we got our lawyers and the 18 lawyers did their job, we got a satisfactory disposition 19 and moved on. 20 Q Thank you, Mr. Horger. Some housekeeping 21 issues. Have you sought or received the pledge of any 22 legislator prior to this date? 23 A No, I have not. 24 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 25 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 0224 1 the outcome of this case? 2 A No, I have not. 3 Q Have you asked any third party to contact 4 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 5 A No, I have not. 6 Q Have you contacted any members of the 7 Commission? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you understand that you're prohibited from 10 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 11 formal release of the Commission's report? 12 A Yes, ma'am, I do. 13 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 14 on pledging? 15 A I have. 16 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of penalties of 17 violating the pledging rules, that is, it is a 18 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the violator must be 19 fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 90 days? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 MS. SHULER: I would note that the Lowcountry 23 Citizens Committee reported the following concerning 24 Mr. Horger: Mr. Horger meets the Constitutional 25 Qualifications for the judicial position he seeks. 0225 1 Ethical Fitness: Persons interviewed by the 2 committee indicated that Mr. Horger is considered 3 ethical. 4 Professional and Academic Ability: The 5 committee gave Mr. Horger a good rating in this area. 6 Character: The committee reported that 7 Mr. Horger's character is unquestionable. 8 Reputation: Mr. Horger enjoys a good 9 reputation in the community and among his peers. 10 Physical and Mental Health: There is evidence 11 that Mr. Horger is physically and mentally capable of 12 performing the duties required of a judge of the Circuit 13 Court. 14 Experience: The committee recognized that 15 Mr. Horger's good legal experience, mainly in the civil 16 arena. 17 Judicial Temperament: The committee gave 18 Mr. Horger a good rating in this category. 19 Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions for 20 this witness. 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you. Does the 22 Commission have any other questions? Mr. Knotts? 23 SENATOR KNOTTS: Go ahead. 24 SENATOR FORD: It will be the same type of 25 questions. 0226 1 BY SENATOR FORD: 2 Q Just a quick question. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Have you been a lawyer working in other 5 districts, I mean, other than the First -- Second? 6 Other than the First, Second? 7 A I do it by counties. At last count, I think I 8 had tried cases with jury verdicts in 29 different 9 counties around the state. 10 Q Explain Monday to me in court. 11 A Monday? 12 Q It sounds like Monday is not a day that they 13 have cases. 14 A Monday is the day that you line up the horses 15 for the race, if you will. That's the day that all the 16 lawyers come in and you have a roster -- generally a 17 roster set up numerically. But quite frankly, instead 18 of taking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as they come down, I think in 19 some cases, a little bit of moving around of that can 20 best accommodate the time in court and can accommodate 21 the parties in facilitating them getting their cases 22 tried. 23 Q Why don't you as a judge suggest that they do 24 that on Friday, you know, late Friday? Because here is 25 the problem. When y'all are doing all this shuffling 0227 1 around and all this traditional stuff, folks in my 2 district are getting killed by repeat offenders. And 3 the lawyers in Charleston are good. They're able to do 4 a lot of shopping, wait until we find the right judge. 5 In the meantime, we're getting all these murders and 6 serious crimes going on in the Lowcountry. 7 I know y'all got a job to do, but we got one, 8 too. I mean, in Charleston we're frustrated with the 9 system. The way you were making those comments that 10 it's no big deal, let's do a case Monday. A case, and 11 we've got 103,000 cases pending. And y'all was happy 12 that y'all did a case on Monday. Is that, in all 16 13 circuits, that the way it's done on Mondays? 14 A No, sir. Maybe I didn't clarify what I meant 15 by it. What we were doing, instead of it breaking down 16 so that no cases got done on Monday, by going 17 numerically down the roster -- 18 Q We've got to do a lot of cases on Monday 19 through Friday. Since we're behind in the system, y'all 20 should be willing to work on Saturday until we can catch 21 up, at least cut it in half. 22 A I can tell you that as a lawyer, I have worked 23 on some Saturdays and Sundays with judges in complex 24 cases in handling motions, in cases that are coming up 25 to trial. And I think in some complex cases, we've had 0228 1 cases assigned to judges. And I, as a judge, would be 2 amenable to working hard on the cases and taking care of 3 things ahead of time. 4 I understand your point. On Monday morning, 5 Monday it all comes to that one place in the courtroom. 6 We have to be efficient. We have to be prepared ahead 7 of time. If it takes scheduling meetings ahead of 8 time -- we used to have more pretrials than we do now. 9 Q Y'all can't do that on Friday afternoon? 10 A I think we can do that on Friday. 11 Q Why don't you make that suggestion? 12 A Well -- 13 Q One more question. Do y'all have a major 14 backlog in the First Circuit? 15 A Well, quite frankly, what I see in the First 16 Circuit in Calhoun County, there is not a backlog. When 17 the case comes up under Rule 40, you usually can try 18 your case that week and move it. 19 Orangeburg, as a whole, what we've been doing 20 under Rule 40 is when the cases come up, we get a 21 roster. We have to work through that roster and we can 22 move them. We move a lot of cases, I believe, in the 23 courts that I've been in. I do not see the backlog that 24 maybe the concern is in some areas like Charleston or 25 Columbia or Spartanburg. I think what it takes is 0229 1 diligence, it takes hard work. 2 I saw a Circuit Court judge several weeks ago 3 in the 14th Judicial Circuit, I understand actually had 4 a roster call on a Friday. First time I've seen that. 5 I don't have a problem with it. It might be a very good 6 idea to have that. And as a suggestion, to line your 7 cases up on Friday because when you get there Monday 8 morning, when you've got a jury waiting, you don't need 9 to take two hours to get your roster set and make the 10 jury wait. I'm very aware of that and in tune that that 11 is a concern. It's a concern I don't want jurors to get 12 the impression the Court is not doing anything because 13 they're sitting there waiting. 14 But my point about what we did that Monday 15 was, instead of having the court break down, we moved 16 things around and we kept the judge and the jury in the 17 court system working instead of it breaking down. Quite 18 frankly, with a backlog, you just don't need to lose 19 those days and half days. I believe I would be diligent 20 and work like that. 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Representative Clemmons 22 and then Senator Knotts. 23 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 24 Q If you are successful in your bid to be a 25 judge, what would be -- if you could name one thing that 0230 1 you could do to make the judicial process in South 2 Carolina more efficient, what would that be? 3 A The court system? 4 Q The court system itself. 5 A Quite frankly, in Orangeburg, we've had a good 6 system where our roster is run very effectively. We've 7 had a Clerk of Court, which has done things ahead of the 8 term, communicate with the lawyers. I think that 9 whether it's the judiciary being involved and looking at 10 a roster ahead of time or working with the clerks, where 11 the clerks can work with the lawyers and get an 12 effective roster management, I think that's the key to 13 moving cases. 14 Q Are you talking about civil cases, right? 15 A Well, civil, and I think in criminal cases, 16 that you look at when you come in. If you've got a 17 jury, you need to work a jury that week. When I say 18 work them, I mean select juries and have cases be tried. 19 I think it's a bit wasteful to have a jury come in and 20 then dismiss a jury for a day or two, and just take 21 pleas. I think maybe they should be plea weeks and then 22 jury trial weeks. 23 But a bit of the problem, I think, is at times 24 the seesaw that you get a jury in and then you see a 25 breakdown in the system. But I think the key is the 0231 1 diligence. It's hard work. This is not a 2 two-day-a-week job. This is a five-day-or-more-a-week 3 job. It's a full-time job. It's something that takes 4 somebody with commitment and diligence to stay behind 5 it. It may take those Friday afternoon roster meetings 6 to be effective on Monday morning, to get that jury in 7 there and try more cases. There's one thing. There are 8 only five days in a week that you have a jury there. If 9 you can try five cases in a week, that's a pretty good 10 accomplishment. A lot of cases will go a day, two, 11 three days. Sometimes you can't move the numbers, and 12 that's just part of the nature of it. But I think the 13 whole thing is diligence and hard work. 14 Q Do you agree that the judge in the courtroom 15 is the captain of the ship. When you're on the bench, 16 there's got to be some work for you. As long as you're 17 on the bench, there will be work for you? 18 A Yeah, I think there is. I think the captain 19 of the ship has to look at the people on the ship and 20 the stewards and see how the work is coming to them and 21 see that the work comes efficiently and that you can get 22 it done. I mean, it's -- that's the diligence and the 23 steerage of the captain, is to see that the work is 24 available. 25 That's why I was commending the judge, because 0232 1 the judge, instead of saying, well, I'm done on Monday 2 at 1:00, I'm through for the rest of the day because 3 court was broken down, I might as well come back 4 Tuesday, the judge says, "That's fine. Bring your 5 people in here at 2:00. We'll try this case." And we 6 got it done. 7 Q What would you do if court broke down on, say, 8 Tuesday at 2:00? 9 A Well, I think the court administration has on 10 occasion actually reassigned judges. So there is 11 opportunities if judges can do nonjury matters. 12 Sometimes it would be difficult because of scheduling 13 requirements, but I know of one or two occasions that 14 actually judges for one court had broken down and they 15 were actually assigned to participate in another court 16 system. 17 Q I see you have very limited experience in 18 criminal matters. What would you do to be able to work 19 on the bench and handle criminal matters? 20 A Well, I've handled criminal matters as 21 Assistant City Judge in Orangeburg, so I actually -- 22 Q Driving under the influence and murder is two 23 different things. 24 A I understand. I have represented people in 25 capital punishment cases. I have not a grand experience 0233 1 and an extensive experience, I would say, in the 2 criminal side of the practice, but I have extensive 3 trial practice. But I have had some serious criminal 4 cases. It's just not my daily bread and butter, if you 5 will. But I do understand. I've been involved in 6 capital punishment cases, and so I do think I have some 7 experience there and I think it's something that I can 8 handle. 9 Q Give me an example of what your work ethic 10 would be, as far as when you would be on the bench, when 11 you would get off the bench in a day, and how many days 12 of the week you would work. 13 A I think the court needs to run five days a 14 week. And the interesting thing about a courtroom, you 15 have to administer to the jury. But I don't see any 16 reason why a judge can't in a typical workday work a 17 full eight hours a day or longer than that. I work 18 longer than that as a lawyer, and I wouldn't have any 19 problem -- I think a judge is going to be looking at the 20 docket and working things from 8:00 in the morning to 21 6:00 at night. I think they're going to have a hard 22 time finding people to do much on Friday afternoons, but 23 that doesn't mean you can't schedule things such as 24 roster meetings and have meetings with lawyers. In 25 particularly complex cases, we have as lawyers scheduled 0234 1 matters on Fridays to go through pretrial exhibits, 2 premarking exhibits, hearing motions and being prepared. 3 So when Monday comes, it's lock and load, you go. The 4 jury's there. You're going to be efficient, you're 5 going to get the jury seated, you're going to get your 6 testimony up, you're going to start the case. I do think 7 there is some diligence required to move about it 8 faster. 9 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 10 Q Actually, I appreciated the Senators' 11 questioning. They asked most of the questions I had on 12 my mind. 13 Your last comment raises a point in my mind 14 about Fridays, it's hard to get people to get things 15 done on Friday. I recall the first time I tried a case 16 was before Judge Ralph K. Anderson. And I had the 17 opportunity after that to try several cases before Judge 18 Anderson. If you were on his trial docket, if you were 19 still on his trial docket on Friday, you were ready to 20 try a case on Friday because that case would get tried 21 with or without you. 22 A Sure. 23 Q That's the type of work ethic we want to see 24 engendered amongst the judiciary. 25 A Sure. 0235 1 Q And it's just amazing when you have that kind 2 of reputation, when that trial docket gets posted on 3 that bulletin board, how quickly cases seem to get 4 settled. 5 SENATOR KNOTTS: Real quickly. 6 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 7 Q Will you subscribe to that sort of work ethic 8 if you were successful in this process? 9 A When I say that about Friday afternoon, in my 10 practice now I'm working Friday afternoon. I think as a 11 judge, there's always things to be done, there's Orders 12 you can do, there's work that you can do. You hear a 13 nonjury matter and you've got to get an Order out, well, 14 Friday afternoon might be a good time, because then if 15 your court breaks down, and you may not be able to get 16 lawyers to a roster meeting at 4:00 on a Friday 17 afternoon, but that doesn't mean you can't be there 18 working on your laptop or be in your office doing your 19 Orders and getting that done. 20 And I think, you know, it's interesting to me 21 in even this last week of the holidays, a lot of people 22 took some time off. And I tell you, quite frankly, it 23 gave me an opportunity to being settled in the office 24 and getting some of that paperwork out. I turned a lot 25 of paperwork last week. I understand the value of some 0236 1 quiet time. I understand that a Friday afternoon might 2 be the most opportune time to get some of that paperwork 3 out. You'll have to do it, and I understand that. 4 My comments about trying to get people, it may 5 be hard to have a pretrial. On the other side of the 6 coin, if somebody needs a minor settlement done or some 7 other type of proceeding, I don't see why a judge 8 couldn't be available to do it then, and don't take away 9 from the juror. 10 Q I'll have to say with Judge Anderson, I spent 11 up to 10:00 at night on Friday night with Judge Anderson 12 in a courtroom, with a promise of coming back Saturday 13 if we didn't get the case settled. 14 SENATOR FORD: But you're a married man. 15 REP. CLEMMONS: Absolutely. 16 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any further questions of 17 Mr. Horger? There being none, Mr. Horger -- there being 18 no further questions, I'd like to thank you for your 19 willingness to participate in the process and show up 20 and testify before us today. 21 And again, I would remind you of the 48-hour 22 rule. The purpose of that rule is that the report does 23 not become a report until 48 hours after it's issued. 24 Before then it's a draft report. Any time before the 25 report before this committee, we could reconvene the 0237 1 public hearing and call you back and ask you any further 2 questions about some issue that may have come up during 3 the interim. That is not very likely to happen, but it 4 is a possibility. 5 With that, I'd like to thank you for being 6 here before us today and I hope you have a safe trip 7 back home. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 SENATOR FORD: Mr. Chairman. 10 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes, sir. 11 SENATOR FORD: I'd like to ask a question to 12 Ms. Shuler. Y'all took part in the criminal justice 13 task force workshops and seminars around the state. The 14 waiver of judges that we waived, did they submit a -- 15 did y'all raise that question about what would they do 16 to improve the system, as far as those backlogs are 17 concerned? 18 MS. SHULER: It depended on the screening 19 attorney. If that was an issue raised in the Bench and 20 Bar, I know that was raised with the judicial candidate. 21 SENATOR FORD: Would it be too late to gather 22 that information from that? I'd like to see what they 23 suggest, because we still got a lot of killing in the 24 Charleston area. 25 MS. SHULER: I'll ask that we e-mail the 0238 1 screening attorneys and see if that's available. 2 SENATOR KNOTTS: One of the biggest things you 3 can do is get them to go to work. 4 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, Mr. Horger. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 (Witness excused.) 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We are going to have a 8 very short executive session over a procedural matter. 9 (The transcript was continued under a separate 10 record.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0245 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We have before us this 2 afternoon Jeffrey Bloom, who seeks a position on the 3 Circuit Court, First Judicial Circuit, Seat Number 1. 4 If you would, please, Mr. Bloom, raise your right hand 5 to be sworn. 6 JEFFREY P. BLOOM, being first duly sworn, 7 testified as follows: 8 EXAMINATION 9 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The Judicial Merit 10 Selection Commission has thoroughly investigated your 11 qualifications for the Bench. Our inquiry has primarily 12 focused on nine evaluative criteria, which have included 13 a survey of the Bench and Bar, a thorough study of your 14 application material, a verification of your compliance 15 with state ethics laws, a search of any newspaper 16 articles your name may have appeared, a search of any 17 previous screenings, a check of economic conflict of 18 interest. 19 We have received no affidavits of opposition 20 to your candidacy or election, and there are no 21 witnesses here to testify. Do you have a brief opening 22 statement you'd like to make? 23 THE WITNESS: I just want to say it's an honor 24 to be here and I'm thoroughly enjoying the process and 25 learning a lot from it. So thank you for your time. 0246 1 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, sir. At this 2 time would you please answer any questions our counsel 3 may have for you. 4 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman, members of the 5 Commission, I have a few procedural matters to take care 6 of. 7 BY MR. GENTRY: 8 Q Mr. Bloom, you have two documents in front of 9 you today. Is the first document before you the 10 Personal Data Questionnaire you submitted as part of 11 your application? 12 A It is, sir. 13 Q Is there any amendment you would like to make 14 at this time? 15 A Just briefly, I believe question 49, I would 16 amend, and that's just the character references. I've 17 given a copy to Ms. Jane Shuler. In place of Solicitor 18 David Pascoe, one of his assistants, Charlie Johnson, 19 wrote that letter of recommendation. And then the last 20 one, I believe, item (e), my bank changed vice 21 presidents, so the letter from my bank attesting to my 22 accounts is from a different vice president. 23 MR. GENTRY: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 24 would ask that Mr. Bloom's Personal Data Questionnaire 25 and amendments be entered in as an exhibit into the 0247 1 hearing. 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: The Personal Data 3 Questionnaire and the amendments will be entered into 4 the record at this point in the transcript. 5 (JMSC PDQ for Jeffrey P. Bloom marked JMSC 6 Exhibit Number 51, for identification.) 7 (Jeffrey P. Bloom Amendment to PDQ marked JMSC 8 Exhibit Number 52, for identification.) 9 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Bloom also provided a sworn 10 statement with detailed answers to over 30 questions 11 regarding judicial conduct, statutory qualifications, 12 office administration, and temperament. That statement 13 was provided to all Commission members earlier and is 14 included in your notebooks. I have no concerns with the 15 statement and, with the Commission's approval, I would 16 ask that those questions be waived in this public 17 hearing today. 18 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Without objection. 19 BY MR. GENTRY: 20 Q Mr. Bloom, is the second document before you 21 the sworn statement you submitted as part of your 22 application? 23 A It is, sir. 24 Q Is there any amendment you'd like to make at 25 this time to your sworn statement? 0248 1 A No, sir. 2 MR. GENTRY: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I 3 would like to ask that Mr. Bloom's sworn statement be 4 entered as an exhibit into the hearing record. 5 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Hearing no objections, the 6 sworn statement will be entered into the record at the 7 point in the transcript. 8 (Sworn Statement of Jeffrey P. Bloom marked 9 JMSC Exhibit Number 53, for identification.) 10 MR. GENTRY: One final procedural matter. I 11 note for the record that based on the testimony 12 contained in the candidate's PDQ, Mr. Bloom meets the 13 statutory requirements for this position regarding age, 14 residence and years of practice. 15 BY MR. GENTRY: 16 Q Mr. Bloom, why do you now want to serve as a 17 Circuit Court judge? 18 A I have dedicated over 25 years to the justice 19 system in this state. And, quite frankly, I'd like an 20 opportunity to serve. 21 Secondly, if I may be so bold to suggest, 22 having practiced in most counties of this state, all 23 over the state, I've come to know a lot of deputies, a 24 lot of solicitors, a lot of public defenders, a lot of 25 members of the Bar. And I would humbly suggest to the 0249 1 committee, whomever you select, really you boil it down 2 to three criteria. One is hopefully the candidate is 3 fairly intelligent and has an intellectual grasp of the 4 law. Second, their demeanor, that they let the lawyers 5 try their case and allow the parties to feel they've had 6 a fair day in court. And third, to bring some diversity 7 and experience and background. 8 I would humbly submit, I think I'd be good at 9 it on those three criteria. If I'm not selected, 10 though, I would humbly suggest that the candidates meet 11 those three criteria. 12 Q Can you explain to the Commission how you feel 13 your legal and professional experience will help you be 14 an effective Circuit Court judge? 15 A Certainly. Again, I kind of touched on that 16 briefly in the last question. I think I'm one of the 17 few candidates who's practiced in virtually almost every 18 county and courthouse in the state. I started as a 19 public defender in Horry County, and after seven years I 20 ran that office. I then was a public defender for seven 21 years in Richland. In private practice, I've been in 22 counties from Marion to Florence to Cherokee to 23 Spartanburg, over to Anderson and down to Aiken, 24 Barnwell, Bamberg, and back up the coast to Charleston 25 and Beaufort. And I've been practicing predominantly 0250 1 over the last four years in Calhoun County, in that 2 area, Calhoun and Orangeburg and Dorchester, the First 3 Circuit. I bring a wealth of, I think, experience and 4 background. 5 I've seen good judges and not so good judges. 6 I've gotten to know solicitors throughout this state. 7 And I think that's something as a candidate I bring to 8 the table and a lot of other candidates don't, just that 9 breadth of experience in seeing how practice is 10 different from Abbeville to Aiken and to Cherokee and 11 Horry. 12 Q Are there any additional legal or procedural 13 areas that you feel you would need to further prepare? 14 And if so, how would you go about that additional 15 preparation? 16 A Well, I acknowledge that while I've been in 17 private practice, one of the first things you may notice 18 is I haven't done a lot of Common Pleas jury cases, but 19 I have done a number of Common Pleas nonjury cases, all 20 the way from the trial court through appeal to the State 21 Supreme Court. So I have a grasp of the Rules of 22 Evidence. The Rules of Evidence are no different in the 23 Common Pleas court than the general sessions. 24 I have a grasp of procedure of professionalism 25 and decorum, and so I think while I have a knowledge of 0251 1 that law, I would recognize that I would benefit from 2 attending additional judicial CLEs or other areas, 3 perhaps sitting in and watching judges in Common Pleas 4 court. But really, when you try a case, it's not a 5 whole lot different whether it's general sessions or 6 Court of Common Pleas. The Rules of Procedure and Rules 7 of Evidence are all the same. 8 Q Although you address this in your sworn 9 affidavit, would you please tell the members of the 10 Commission what you think is the appropriate demeanor 11 for a judge? 12 A I think a judge needs to be courteous and 13 professional. I'm an Eagle Scout. I've been a Boy 14 Scout for a long time, and I currently serve as a Scout 15 Master. And I try to live my daily life, quite 16 frankly -- I know this may sound somewhat naive, but I 17 try to live my daily life according to Scout Law. Scout 18 Law says a Scout is courteous. 19 Again, I know my history as a public defender 20 and I understand that may strike some people with a 21 question in their mind. But I think if you ask any 22 solicitor in this state, and all of them know me, all of 23 them would say I have treated them in even the most 24 difficult cases with courteousness, professionalism and 25 the utmost respect for their position. I rarely call a 0252 1 solicitor by his first name or her first name. I 2 address them by their title, Solicitor. They are an 3 elected representative, and I afford them that respect. 4 And I think I would bring that same courteousness and 5 professionalism to the position as a judge. 6 Q According to the information we received from 7 SLED pertaining to lawsuits, you've been sued several 8 times in your professional capacity as a public 9 defender. What were the outcome of those lawsuits? 10 A All of those were dismissed. Those were 11 individual lawsuits. As I said, I was the public 12 defender of Horry County for seven years, I was the 13 public defender here in Richland County for seven years. 14 And sometimes when defendants, particularly when they're 15 incarcerated by the State Department of Corrections, 16 think that they can delay their case or get out of their 17 case if they sue the public defender and the Public 18 Defender Office. I would often refuse to get out of a 19 case simply because of that, because it was usually 20 meant as a delay, and we would have a hearing and I 21 would insist to remain in the case, even if they were 22 bringing a lawsuit. In the end, all of those lawsuits 23 were dismissed. I never had a single judgment against 24 me or the Public Defender Office, nor any malpractice 25 action. 0253 1 Q What suggestions would you offer for improving 2 the backlog of cases on the docket in Circuit Court, for 3 Common Pleas and/or General Sessions court? 4 A You know, I don't think there's any magic 5 bullet to that, and I don't know if there's one size 6 fits all. And having had the benefit, as I say, of 7 practicing in counties as small as Calhoun and Abbeville 8 and in counties as growing as Horry County or Lexington 9 or Greenville, I think probably the first thing one 10 would do in terms of trying to address docket control is 11 talk to the local people there who are involved in it, 12 talk to your local Circuit Court, your Solicitor, local 13 members of the Bar in terms of Common Pleas issues, your 14 local Sheriff. They can give you a whole lot of 15 insight, because a solution that may fit, for example, 16 Calhoun County may not fit Lexington County. What may 17 work in Greenville may not work in Orangeburg. 18 To give you one example, Calhoun, where I 19 practice, we only have four or five terms of court a 20 year, whether it's General Sessions or Common Pleas. 21 And everybody works together. The docket there right 22 now is less than a hundred cases for both criminal and 23 Common Pleas docket. But that may not necessarily work 24 for Orangeburg. One of Orangeburg's problems is they 25 only have the one main courtroom and then a little side 0254 1 courtroom, so you can only squeeze so many people, 2 whether they're judges or attorneys or solicitors, into 3 one courtroom at a time. So that has a different 4 dynamic going on. So I really don't think one size fits 5 all works. And I really think local input can alleviate 6 some of that docket control. 7 I think the other thing I would humbly add is 8 sometimes a judge needs to work longer hours and try to 9 get the parties involved to do that, too. I remember 10 the late Sidney Floyd from Horry County who kind of 11 taught me a lot of what I know and I observed him, he 12 would often come to the jail. He would have a term of 13 court at the county jail and do bond hearings and guilty 14 pleas and other things, not a jury trials, but those 15 kind of things. That moved an awful lot of cases. So 16 talking to your local people, I think, can provide you 17 with solutions that work for that local docket. 18 Q If you were elected to the Bench, what would 19 you like your legacy to be as a judge in the Circuit 20 Court? 21 A I think it goes back to the demeanor question, 22 because judges don't try cases. I don't think a judge 23 can leave a legacy of I have so many cases like this or 24 so many cases like that. A judge does not bring -- a 25 Circuit Court judge should not bring any agenda to the 0255 1 Bench. A Circuit Court judge should allow the parties 2 to try their case, and a Circuit Court judge ought to 3 leave -- the participants should leave feeling they were 4 treated fairly, whether it was a criminal case or a 5 civil case, that they had their fair day in court. And 6 that, I would think, would be my humble legacy. 7 A circuit judge doesn't make the law. The 8 legislature makes the law. And the appellate courts 9 interpret it and apply it. The circuit judge simply 10 enforces the law and makes sure everybody has a fair day 11 in court, win, lose or draw. 12 Q Thank you, Mr. Bloom. Have you sought or 13 received the pledge of any legislator prior to this 14 date? 15 A I have not, sir. 16 Q Have you sought or have you been offered a 17 conditional pledge of support of any legislator pending 18 the outcome of your screening? 19 A I have not, sir. 20 Q Have you asked any third parties to contact 21 members of the General Assembly on your behalf? 22 A Friends and colleagues of mine offered to 23 contact legislators. I checked with you to make sure I 24 understood the rule. I said they could, obviously, 25 attest to my character and what they knew about my 0256 1 reputation. I also asked them to tell good lies about 2 me, but I made sure they specifically knew the rule was 3 not to ask for any pledge, they could not do that and I 4 didn't want them to do that. 5 Q Have you contacted any members of the 6 Commission? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Do you understand that you're prohibited from 9 seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours after the 10 formal release of the Commission's report? 11 A Yes, sir, I understand that rule. 12 Q Have you reviewed the Commission's guidelines 13 on pledging? 14 A I have, sir. 15 Q As a follow-up, are you aware of the penalties 16 for violating the pledge rules? 17 A I am, sir. 18 MR. GENTRY: I would note that the Lowcountry 19 Citizens Committee reported the following regarding 20 Mr. Bloom. 21 Constitutional Qualifications: Mr. Bloom 22 meets the Constitutional Qualifications for the judicial 23 position he seeks. 24 Ethical Fitness: Persons interviewed by the 25 committee indicated that Mr. Bloom is considered 0257 1 ethical. 2 Professional and Academic Ability: The 3 committee gave Mr. Bloom an exceptional rating in this 4 area. 5 Character: The committee reported that 6 Mr. Bloom's character is unquestionable. 7 Reputation: Mr. Bloom enjoys a good 8 reputation in the community and among his peers. 9 Physical and Mental Health: There is evidence 10 that Mr. Bloom is physically and mentally capable of 11 performing the duties required of a judge of the Circuit 12 Court. 13 Experience: The committee recognized 14 Mr. Bloom's good legal experience in the criminal arena. 15 Judicial Temperament: The committee gave 16 Mr. Bloom a good rating in this category. 17 I would note for the record that any concerns 18 raised during the investigation regarding this candidate 19 were incorporated in the questioning of the candidate 20 today. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. 21 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Clemmons and 22 Senator Ford. 23 BY REP. CLEMMONS: 24 Q Mr. Bloom, thank you for being here. Thank 25 you for your willingness to serve the State. 0258 1 A Thank you for having me. 2 Q As an Eagle Scout, former Scout Master myself, 3 I welcome you. I'll give you the secret handshake 4 later. 5 To be quite honest with you, Mr. Bloom, the 6 first thought I had looking at your qualifications of 7 public defender, that tells me you may be taking some 8 bias in favor of defending to the Bench with you. I'd 9 like you to comment on that. 10 A Certainly, and I appreciate that question. 11 Again, I think a circuit judge is limited in what they 12 can do. The lawyers try the case or present it, whether 13 it's a criminal or civil case, and I think the judge's 14 job is to make sure every party feels they've been 15 treated fairly that day when they walk out of the 16 courtroom or when they go to jail. 17 The next thing I would say to that, I think 18 actually my public defender experience brings a breadth 19 of experience to the table that other candidates don't 20 have. One, I don't think there's too many Circuit Court 21 judges with that type of experience. Secondly, and I 22 don't mean this in jest, although it may sound that way, 23 but I've pretty much heard every tale a defendant can 24 tell. So I think I bring that perspective of not 25 someone who's jaundiced by it, but someone who 0259 1 understands sometimes how defendants try to either use 2 the system or tell stories to evoke sympathy. I think 3 I'm very well conditioned and aware of that. 4 The last thing I would add is there are many 5 colleagues of mine who were former solicitors and they 6 made fine judges. One I would cite is Knox McMahon used 7 to kick my tail around quite a bit in the courtroom here 8 in Richland County when he was a Deputy Solicitor. 9 Every time I've walked in his courtroom, I left feeling 10 treated fairly, responsibly, with the utmost 11 courteousness, and he's made a fine judge. As I 12 understand it, he's the Chief Administrative Judge in 13 Lexington County for Common Pleas, having seen someone 14 like that who can balance it. 15 Another judge I think very highly of is 16 Clifford Newman who used to be an Assistant Attorney 17 General. Every time I walk out of Judge Newman's 18 courtroom -- he sent one of my clients to jail with a 19 sentence -- I feel like I've been treated fairly, 20 professionally and with the utmost courtesy. So I don't 21 think there's anything in my background that would 22 prevent me from setting any kind of bias like that or 23 predisposition at the door. A judge has to enforce the 24 law as a case is brought to him or her, and I think I 25 could ably do that. There's no law that I know of that 0260 1 I could not enforce in the courtroom, whether civil or 2 criminal. 3 Q Thank you. I appreciate your response. 4 Realizing that the law is what it is in South Carolina 5 regarding capital punishment, I'd be interested in 6 hearing your personal views on capital punishment. 7 A Certainly. I think the system has problems in 8 it that we could discuss all day on both sides of the 9 aisle. But I have never testified, either publicly or 10 not publicly, never said I'm opposed to the death 11 penalty. I understand it's part of our law. There are 12 some procedural problems with it. Again, I'll be glad 13 to share one with you today, if I'm able. But I could 14 easily enforce that law. I'm a sworn officer of the law 15 and officer of the Court. And that would not cause me 16 any difficulty whatsoever. 17 If I may take the opportunity, there was -- 18 and Senator Knotts and I have served on committees, and 19 I think he knows, though we sometimes disagree, he knows 20 I've always been straight with him. There is a loophole 21 right now in the death penalty statute which requires a 22 defendant who pleads guilty, it's mandated that he be 23 sentenced by a judge. I humbly think that's a flaw. 24 The U.S. Supreme Court has issued a number of opinions 25 which says only a jury can decide elements beyond a 0261 1 reasonable doubt. So I think that's a loophole at some 2 point that may come back to bite us. It could easily 3 change. Even if the defendant pled guilty, he is still 4 entitled to jury sentencing unless he waives that. 5 So I share that observation with you just in 6 terms of being honest and someone from my experience 7 who's seen those loopholes sometimes come back to be 8 exploited. But I would have no trouble enforcing the 9 laws as a circuit judge. 10 Q And your personal views regarding capital 11 punishment? 12 A My personal views I don't think would be an 13 impediment. Again, my personal views are that capital 14 punishment sometimes is warranted. I have had to 15 represent clients because judges have appointed me 16 personally to cases where I thought the death penalty 17 was warranted. And I've set those aside and done the 18 job that the Court assigned me to do. And even though I 19 think there are some problems with the death penalty 20 sometimes, how it's administered, I think I can easily 21 enforce it. 22 And, again, in a death penalty case, a judge's 23 opinion doesn't come into play. The Rules of Evidence 24 come into play, the party's evidence is presented and 25 the judge proceeds accordingly. 0262 1 REP. CLEMMONS: Thank you very much. 2 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Ford? 3 SENATOR FORD: Another Eagle Scout. Well 4 prepared, though. 5 REP. CLEMMONS: We are. 6 BY SENATOR FORD: 7 Q I don't think he was too prepared on that 8 answer you gave about the dockets. Let me find out 9 really what you meant by that. Now, in Charleston 10 you've got the Sheriff, the Solicitor -- according to 11 your answer, the Sheriff, the Solicitor, the lawyers, 12 the prosecutors are going to get together and change 13 probably the biggest good ol' boy system in South 14 Carolina. You don't expect that to happen. 15 A No, sir. And I may have not expressed myself 16 clearly. 17 Q But you're an Eagle Scout. Be prepared. 18 A Let me make sure I answer that clearly for 19 you. First off, I think it would help to get input from 20 those local authorities. 21 Q But they like it the way it is. 22 A That may be. That may be a flaw in that 23 particular docket system. And in that case -- 24 Q We've got one-third of the backlog in the 25 state in Charleston County. Not Charleston County. 0263 1 We're the Ninth Judicial Circuit? What are we? 2 MR. HARRELL: Ninth. 3 BY SENATOR FORD: 4 Q Ninth, yeah. We've got one-third of the 5 backlog. 6 A I think input from your local officials may 7 give some insight as to how to address those specific 8 problems. But I didn't mean to imply to stop there. I 9 think another aspect of that may be the docket control 10 system. You know, Solicitor Trey Gowdy has voluntarily 11 undertaken that. And in my conversations with him, he 12 says the docket control system has been very helpful. 13 Q What circuit is that? 14 A That is the Seventh Circuit, Spartanburg and 15 Cherokee. 16 The docket control system, as I've seen 17 implemented in Richland, has done a great improvement. 18 Solicitor Giese, I think, has some of his lowest docket 19 numbers he's had in years since that got implemented. 20 What that has done -- of course, that came from court 21 administration. That didn't come from the legislature, 22 that pilot system. What that has done is allowed the 23 circuit judge to preside over defendants' repeat 24 appearances, so if a circuit judge sees that there's a 25 delay in that system, the Circuit Court judge can order 0264 1 the parties to dispose of that case in a certain time 2 period. 3 Q Can I correct that? Giese -- I mean, Richland 4 County got on board when Senator McConnell appointed a 5 task force to look into those things. 6 A Yes. 7 Q The only person who was implementing the 8 system at the time was York County. And York County 9 came to testify at something like 11 meetings. And 10 other solicitors that was there finally picked up that 11 system we got from the Supreme Court. 12 A Right. 13 Q So it wasn't Giese. It wasn't the 14 legislature, but it wasn't Giese either. It was a 15 solicitor from York County. 16 A Correct. I think there's a pilot program that 17 Chief Justice Toal urged on some counties. 18 Q We had to convince Chief Justice Toal that 19 this was needed. She finally, after a lot of wiggling 20 and everything, she finally adopted it. 21 A That's right. 22 Q And you're not touching Charleston County. 23 There's something terribly wrong in my county. 24 A It may be that that type of docket control 25 system is needed in Charleston County. 0265 1 Q Yeah, but nobody's enforcing that. 2 A You either then have to come through Court 3 Order by the Chief Justice or by the legislature. 4 Q This seat, this is not an Orangeburg seat? 5 A This is Dorchester, Orangeburg and Calhoun. 6 Q But you live in Columbia, right? 7 A No, I live in Calhoun County. 8 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Senator Knotts. 9 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 10 Q Mr. Bloom, you've been around the circuits as 11 long as I can remember. 12 A I have, sir. 13 Q And you've seen a lot of things in the 14 circuits that are wrong. You've seen a lot of things 15 that's right. As public defender, I believe one of the 16 things that was implemented in the York County docket 17 control system was the fact that a solicitor could 18 receive a case, and before indictment he could return it 19 back to the Sheriff's Department or the local law 20 enforcement for further investigation, because it didn't 21 warrant enough evidence to reach conviction. 22 Have you seen cases in your time that would 23 help the docket crowdedness by having an outlet like 24 that to be able to return cases if it wasn't properly 25 investigated? 0266 1 A Certainly. I would support giving that 2 discretion to the Solicitor. Ultimately, the Solicitor 3 is the one who has to decide whether to take that case 4 to a grand jury. If it's indicted, the Solicitor has to 5 decide how to prosecute that case, whether it's a case 6 appropriate for trial or whether the Solicitor is going 7 to offer a plea negotiation in the case. And that 8 authority needs to be retained by the Solicitor to have 9 that discretion. 10 Q I'm sure in your past you've seen judges that 11 have real good work ethics and judges that don't have 12 real good work ethics. 13 A Absolutely. And I could attest -- not because 14 I sit here, but if you talk to most folks that know me, 15 I'm used to working late, used to working weekends, 16 whatever it takes to get the job done. As I said, 17 Sidney Floyd used to hold court in the jail. You have 18 judges who sometimes work late into the evening to get 19 dockets resolved. And that's not something I'm afraid 20 of doing. My sons are grown. They're 22 and 24. One 21 is at the university here in elementary ed., one is in 22 the military in Iraq. I wear his pin to honor him. 23 They're both Eagle Scouts, too. So my work ethic, if 24 you talk to most folks who know me, I'm not afraid of 25 doing -- I usually work through lunch. I'm not big on 0267 1 going out to eat. I bring a sandwich and piece of fruit 2 and I work right at my desk and keep right on going. 3 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Any other questions? 4 There being no other questions, Mr. Bloom, I'd like to 5 remind you of the 48-hour Rule. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 7 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: It basically says that we 8 issue a report. 48 hours later, it becomes a report. 9 Before then, it's a draft. And any time up until it 10 becomes a report of this Commission, we can reconvene 11 and call you back if we wanted to. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: We can do that. Now, 14 other than that, I want to thank you for -- 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 16 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: -- taking part in the 17 process. You have a safe trip home. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. May I add one 19 last thing to one of the questions in response. One 20 other thing I want to note, and I don't want to delay 21 you. I know you've been here a long day, but I just 22 recollected it. It may address the other gentleman's 23 question. 24 In terms of any bias as a public defender, I 25 forced -- I shouldn't say forced myself, but I had 0268 1 myself take a victim training course offered out of 2 Atlanta, Georgia. And they brought in both victims 3 who've been victims of violent crimes, and they brought 4 in victims' family members or homicide cases and 5 prosecutors. It was a week-long, seven-day course that 6 I paid for. I didn't get a CLE credit or anything. It 7 was something I wanted to do that I did a couple years 8 ago to understand that other side. 9 And it has greatly sensitized me, I think, to 10 victims and victims' rights. In the last several 11 difficult cases I've had, I've worked through the 12 Solicitor to reach out to the victims' families to help 13 them address questions that only I could get answered 14 from the defendant I was appointed to. I didn't point 15 that out before, but I thought that may be important. 16 SENATOR KNOTTS: One other question. 17 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Yes. 18 BY SENATOR KNOTTS: 19 Q What would you do to keep court running? If 20 there was a breakdown, you've seen court broke down, and 21 the judge is sitting there and there's nothing to try. 22 And you've also seen whenever the judge takes off and 23 leaves, and leaves folks standing there with cases to 24 try. How would you handle that on both ways? 25 A I would very simply get a Solicitor together 0269 1 or a representative from the Solicitor's Office, a 2 representative from the Circuit Defender's Office, 3 because I think that now gives -- the Circuit Defender's 4 system we've enacted is going to be incredible. It 5 allows prosecutors and judges to reach out and tag one 6 person in charge of all those candidates for that one 7 circuit. 8 When you get those two folks together and you 9 get someone from the jail and say you need a jail list, 10 then you can move some cases. You can say, okay, we 11 broke down. There's got to be some folks in jail, some 12 folks on bond here in the courthouse we can move either 13 through pleas or negotiation or get something done. As 14 I said, the late Sidney Floyd used to gather us all up 15 and say we're going to the jail. If you can't get them 16 here, gather up the lawyers from both sides and we're 17 going to go with a court reporter and we're all going to 18 go to the jail and get it done there. 19 Q That's a good answer for the ones that haven't 20 gotten any money. But what about them lawyers that is 21 making all the money to keep all the people out on bond 22 and keep them from going to trial? They're on the 23 streets committing crimes. So I mean, you left out that 24 whole segment. 25 A And you can have a backup. You ought to be 0270 1 able to, when you come in, ask the Solicitor for a bond 2 docket, as well, cases that are older, where those 3 defendants are on bond organized either by date of 4 arrest and bond by age or by private attorney, and be 5 able to have them on telephone standby to get them 6 there, as well. 7 As I say, my experience in Calhoun County, 8 I've been doing that for over four years, and Judge 9 Goodstein is the one who first started appointing me and 10 getting me to help down there. It works on a smaller 11 scale because we have maybe a hundred cases on the 12 docket and it's one public defender and one Solicitor. 13 We easily don't let court break down. We call people 14 and get them there, whether they're in jail, they're 15 just 10 minutes down the road from Orangeburg. So when 16 things break down, we work as a team. 17 Sometimes that is, for lack of a better word, 18 a culture that a judge can help facilitate to help the 19 public defender and Solicitor work together. I 20 encourage you to come down to Calhoun County sometime 21 and see how everybody works as a team to get those cases 22 moved. There's no sense having someone in jail for a 23 year or longer if that case can be worked out. And if 24 not, set a trial date. Likewise, there is no sense 25 having someone on bond if they have a drug problem and 0271 1 you know they need treatment. There's no sense having 2 them out there for a year on bond when you can get them 3 to court and get them that treatment. 4 Those matters are a smaller scale, but 5 sometimes a judge can use that type of influence to get 6 the parties together to work more together, to get those 7 kinds of things done. Certainly there's people on bond 8 and in jail that need the case moved. 9 Q Someone before said something earlier about 10 judge shopping. There are a lot of these lawyers out 11 there that have these clients that shop judges to keep 12 their client from going to jail. They're out there 13 selling more drugs, breaking into more houses and stuff 14 like that. It's not in the jail. 15 A few minutes ago you didn't mention the 16 private lawyer. You said get the Solicitor and the 17 Public Defender's Office working together. There's more 18 people out there committing crimes than just sitting in 19 jail. And there's more lawyers out there involved in 20 the court system than just the public defender. You may 21 be talking from experience because that's what they've 22 always done to you. So that being the case, as a judge, 23 I would hope that you would help the system by making 24 sure you get the -- that the public is threatened by 25 those people that are out on bond. 0272 1 A Absolutely. 2 Q Not the one in jail. They're not going to 3 break in your house and selling your kids drugs. 4 They're in jail. If you've got one that's out on bond, 5 he's out on bond to make money to pay his lawyer to keep 6 from going to jail, to keep from coming before a judge. 7 A Absolutely. You can now, in most circuits, 8 print a docket and sort it by either age of case or by 9 offense or by attorneys. And I would think having 10 those, to answer your question specifically, Senator 11 Knotts, those types of dockets a judge could ask to be 12 produced to get so-and-so in here and let's see about 13 those cases. 14 BY SENATOR FORD: 15 Q Let me ask you a question. Would you go up 16 against the big boys in these various scenarios, the 17 big-time lawyers? You know who they are. 18 A Senator, I'm glad you asked that question. 19 Not to toot my own horn, but I know this is part of the 20 process, and if I don't do it, no one else will. I 21 think, again, that's an advantage I bring to the table. 22 I'm not beholden to anybody. I haven't worked for any 23 big law firm. I'm not associated with any, as you call 24 it, the big dogs. I run a small little private 25 practice. I have one little legal assistant. And I 0273 1 just -- if someone comes in with one of them big 2 lawsuits or fancy silk ties, that doesn't mean anything 3 to me. I'm not beholden to those folks. And, you 4 know -- 5 Q What about a guy has been out seven years, 6 committing a crime, paid the bond, got a big-time 7 lawyer, committing crime almost on a nightly basis, the 8 case never come up because when it come up, the lawyer 9 have enough influence with judges and solicitors and to 10 make sure it never come up. Would you look at the 11 docket and see those kind of things and say, okay, I 12 don't care whether you're -- I don't care whether Robert 13 Ford is your lawyer or not, we are going to try this 14 case and we're going to try it now? Would you take that 15 kind of approach? 16 A I see nothing wrong with that approach. And 17 I've seen my predecessor Jimmy Williams do that on 18 occasion. Again, I think the benefit he brought to that 19 is he'd been a deputy solicitor for a number of years. 20 He wasn't beholden to any big dogs, as you say. 21 Certainly, that's my approach. The taxpayers have the 22 right that the case is moved in a timely manner. 23 Q And safety. 24 A The constituents have a right to have cases 25 heard in a timely manner. And civil workers have a 0274 1 right to have cases heard in a timely manner. And the 2 judge can manage that docket to make that happen. I 3 would have no qualms about me making sure dockets move 4 in an efficient manner. 5 CHAIRMAN DELLENEY: Thank you, Mr. Bloom. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very kindly. It's 7 been an honor. 8 (Whereupon there was a recess 9 in the proceedings from 3:30 to 3:35.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0275 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Cynthia First, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public for the State of 4 South Carolina at Large, do hereby certify: That the foregoing deposition was 5 taken before me on the date and at the time and location stated on page 1 of this transcript; that the deponent 6 was duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; that the testimony of the 7 deponent and all objections made at the time of the examination were recorded stenographically by me and 8 were thereafter transcribed; that the foregoing deposition as typed is a true, accurate and complete 9 record of the testimony of the deponent and of all objections made at the time of the examination to the 10 best of my ability. I further certify that I am neither 11 related to nor counsel for any party to the cause pending or interested in the events thereof. 12 Witness my hand, I have hereunto affixed my official seal this 5th day of December, 2008, 13 at Columbia, Richland County, South Carolina. 14 15 16 _______________________________ Cynthia First, 17 Registered Professional Reporter Notary Public 18 State of South Carolina at Large My Commission expires: 19 October 16, 2018 20 21 22 23 24 25 0276 1 I N D E X 2 Page 4 Open Session 40,245 5 6 EXAMINATION OF: 7 JUDGE PANDORA JONES-GLOVER 48,67,102 8 JUDGE JAMES C. WILLIAMS, JR. 56 9 LOXIE L. RAEL 92 10 MAITE MURPHY 124 11 EDGAR WARREN DICKSON 141 12 D'ANNE HAYDEL 159,181 13 MAE HALMON 170 14 JAMES B. JACKSON, JR. 195 15 MICHAEL P. HORGER 214 16 JEFFREY P. BLOOM 245 17 18 Certificate of Reporter 275 19