0001 1 JUDICIAL MERIT SELECTION 2 COMMISSION 3 4 5 EVALUATION OF CANDIDATES 6 BY COMMISSION MEMBERS 7 8 PUBLIC HEARING ON JUDICIAL QUALIFICATIONS 9 Volume III - PM 10 11 Thursday, November 4th, 2009 12 1:37 p.m. 13 The Gressette Building, Room 105 Columbia, South Carolina 14 15 16 REPORTED BY: SONIA I. MENDEZ, Certified Court Reporter 17 ___________________________________________________ 18 19 COMPUSCRIPTS, INC. A Full-Service Court-Reporting Agency 20 Post Office Box 7172 Columbia, South Carolina 29202 21 803.988.0086 888.988.0086 22 www.compuscriptsinc.com 23 24 25 0002 1 MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE: 2 SENATOR GLENN F. MCCONNELL, CHAIRMAN 3 REPRESENTATIVE F.G. DELLENEY, JR., VICE CHAIRMAN 4 PROFESSOR JOHN P. FREEMAN 5 JOHN DAVIS HARRELL 6 SENATOR JOHN "JAKE" M. KNOTTS, JR. 7 AMY JOHNSON MCLESTER 8 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN D. CLEMMONS 9 REPRESENTATIVE DAVID J. MACK, III 10 H. DONALD SELLERS 11 SENATOR FLOYD NICHOLSON 12 13 COUNSEL PRESENT: 14 JANE O. SHULER, CHIEF COUNSEL 15 PATRICK G. DENNIS 16 BONNIE B. GOLDSMITH 17 ANDREW T. FIFFICK, IV 18 J.J. GENTRY 19 E. KATHERINE WELLS 20 NANCY COOMBS 21 HEATHER ANDERSON 22 PAULA BENSON 23 JOEL DEASON 24 RICK FULMER 25 (INDEX AT REAR OF TRANSCRIPT) 0003 1 P R O C E E D I N G 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Everybody 3 ready to go back on the record? We'll go back on 4 the record, and we were in the midst of a hearing. 5 But the commission has looked at its scheduling 6 situation, and let me report the following to the 7 members and see if they're in agreement. 8 Today we had scheduled three circuit 9 judges who we have reviewed their files 10 extensively. We have no concerns raised by the 11 Citizens Committee, we have no concerns raised by 12 the bar, we have no concerns raised by our review 13 of these judges based upon our non-evaluative 14 criteria. 15 We have gotten behind because we're 16 trying to handle the matters that are before them. 17 The Honorable Ralph Cothran, Circuit Court, Third 18 Judicial Circuit, Seat Number 1; the Honorable Paul 19 Michael Burch, Circuit Court, Fourth Judicial 20 Circuit, Seat Number 1; the Honorable Brooks P. 21 Goldsmith, Circuit Court, Sixth Judicial Circuit, 22 Seat Number 1; the Honorable David Garrison Hill, 23 Circuit Court, 13th Judicial Circuit, Seat 24 Number 4; the Honorable John Calvin Hayes, III, 25 Circuit Court, 16th Judicial Circuit, Seat 1; the 0004 1 Honorable Lee Alford, Circuit Court, 16th Judicial 2 Circuit, Seat 2; and the Honorable Jack Early, III, 3 Circuit Court, Second Judicial Circuit, Seat 4 Number 1, scheduled for 6:30 today. It's my 5 understanding all of these we have reviewed and we 6 are -- we're going to back up and not have time to 7 get to them. 8 What is the wishes of the -- 9 Professor. 10 PROF. FREEMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move 11 that we waive the hearings as to these carefully 12 considered candidates. 13 MS. McLESTER: Second. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. It's now 15 been moved and seconded. The floor is open for 16 discussion. 17 Is there any discussion? 18 There being none, we're going to a 19 vote. Please announce the -- everybody in favor of 20 the motion, please raise your right hand. And I'll 21 ask the staff to call them out so that we get a 22 recorded vote for the record. 23 MS. SHULER: Senator Nicholson, 24 Mr. Harrell, Representative -- no, Ms. McLester, 25 Senator McConnell, Senator Knotts, Professor 0005 1 Freeman, Representative Mack, and Mr. Sellers. 2 Do you want to vote? 3 And Representative Delleney with 4 Representative Clemmons' proxy. So that would make 5 it ten. 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: It would show it as a 7 unanimous vote of the commission. All right. 8 The next thing I would report to you 9 is the following, for tomorrow's hearing, because 10 we will be now shifting some of the hearings we had 11 this afternoon until tomorrow, we have identified 12 through careful review the following retired 13 judges. We have reviewed Citizens Committee 14 comments, bar -- bench and bar comments, and we 15 have reviewed what our staff has advised us. 16 There are no issues raised on these 17 retired judges. The following ones are the 18 Honorable E.C. Burnett, III, from the Supreme 19 Court, retired; Honorable Ralph King Anderson, Jr. 20 for the Court of Appeals, retired; the Honorable 21 Thomas Cooper, Circuit Court, retired; the 22 Honorable Thomas Hughston, Jr., Circuit Court, 23 retired; the Honorable Howard P. King, Circuit 24 Court, retired; the Honorable James Carlyle 25 Williams, Circuit Court, retired; the Honorable 0006 1 Timothy L. Brown, Family Court, retired; Honorable 2 Peter R. Nuessle, Family Court, retired; and the 3 Honorable Donna S. Strom, Family Court retired. 4 Additionally, for tomorrow we have a 5 circuit judge, the Honorable George Welmaker, 6 Circuit Court for the 13th Judicial Circuit, Seat 7 Number 1. He also is in a similar -- we have no 8 concerns raised on that. 9 So that would be the next thing. 10 What is the pleasure of the commission 11 on that? 12 MR. SELLERS: I move that we waive 13 hearing on retired judges. 14 MR. HARRELL: Second. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: And the additional 16 circuit, the one that we picked up on Friday. All 17 right. 18 Does everybody understand the motion? 19 Mr. Harrell, Ms. McLester, it's not 20 seconded. The floor is open for discussion. 21 Is there any discussion? 22 There being none, we'll go to a 23 recorded vote. All in favor please raise your 24 right hand. 25 MS. SHULER: Senator Nicholson, 0007 1 Mr. Harrell, Ms. McLester, Representative Delleney, 2 also voting Representative Clemmons' proxy, Senator 3 McConnell, Senator Knotts, Professor Freeman, 4 Representative Mack, Mr. Sellers. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. And I am 6 going to instruct the staff, unless you all 7 disagree, to begin moving some of the things that 8 we have scheduled for this afternoon over to 9 tomorrow, and start moving time slots, and just ask 10 them to use their best discretion in coordinating 11 schedules as best they can. 12 With agreement? 13 SEN. KNOTTS: Yes, sir. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll try 15 to get back to where we were. We are now 16 reconvening the hearing that we were having 17 earlier. 18 Yes, sir, the senator from Lexington. 19 SEN. KNOTTS: As far as the circuit 20 judge that we just waived, do we all need to make a 21 motion to find him qualified and nominated? 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a good point. 23 We probably need all of them that we have waived 24 hearings on, we will need before we adjourn, we 25 have some other we haven't acted on, if you'll 0008 1 remind me, or staff will, that we need to take 2 those up because we have to do both the 3 qualification and the nomination under the statute. 4 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Thank 6 you for bringing that to my attention. All right. 7 Mr. McKenzie, if you want to come on 8 back up. We're back on the record, back at the 9 screening hearing for the Honorable F.P. "Charlie" 10 Segars-Andrews, and we're resuming where -- before 11 we had to go into executive session. 12 I would tell you that in the executive 13 session, also for the record, that we took no 14 formal action. Any formal action by this 15 commission was taken in open public session. 16 That having been said, we're back now 17 and counsel -- 18 (EXH. 1A was enter into the record.) 19 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, you had 20 asked for a copy of the order. We have a copy of 21 the order at this time, which I will pass out to 22 the members. 23 And Mr. McKenzie, was there anything 24 else that you wanted to add concerning any of the 25 process, other than the disciplinary procedure 0009 1 process? 2 MR. McKENZIE: I'll just entertain any 3 other questions that the Committee may have. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me go back and make 5 sure where we were. It was approximately 555,000 6 to Mr. Simpson, around 221,000 to Mrs. Simpson, 7 about an $8,000 debt owing Mrs. Simpson, debt 8 assumption for Mr. Simpson was 242,500 or 9 thereabouts, correct? 10 SEN. KNOTTS: Yes, sir. Plus attorney 11 fees. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, moving 13 to the attorney fees, you agree with the amount? 14 What was it, 60 -- 15 MR. McKENZIE: It was -- the 16 attorneys' fees was $78,039.91, and there was 17 $5,000 to pay for the wife's certified public 18 accountant which was a total of $83,039.91 in 19 attorneys' fees and cost. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Was there any other 21 major property divide inside of this decree that 22 you can recall? 23 MR. McKENZIE: I don't recall. You 24 know, obviously the husband got the marital home 25 and all that was tied in marital debt that we had 0010 1 discussed. 2 If you look at his assets, basically 3 what he got was, he got the debt. He may have 4 gotten or may have received -- gotten, I'm sorry, I 5 apologize -- $320,000 worth of assets, but he also 6 received $240,000 worth of debt. I mean, I guess 7 that's the net that he had to be responsible to the 8 wife. 9 SEN. KNOTTS: How much assets? 10 MR. McKENZIE: The wife got the -- 11 received the 221 minus her debt which would have 12 been a net of 213, plus you got $83,000 and benefit 13 of attorneys' fees and costs, which would push her 14 portion well above $300,000. 15 And if you look at the net amount of 16 what these -- of the estate was, was 555. Then she 17 gets the bulk of -- with the attorneys' fees and 18 costs, she gets the bulk of the estate. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Was the issue of fault 20 contested in this divorce? 21 MR. McKENZIE: It was not contested, 22 and that was held at a separate hearing on the 23 issue of fault. And the other side, she was 24 actively living -- living actually in another state 25 with the man. And so that was not an issue at all. 0011 1 The issue of fault was based on -- it 2 wasn't physical cruelty obviously, because there 3 was no allegation of physical cruelty against the 4 husband. It was cruelty against the children. But 5 the fault was adultery on her part, so. 6 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, the other 7 question I would have is counsel's concern 8 concerning the disciplinary proceeding. As I 9 understand -- 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me -- all right. 11 Did any Commissioner have any question at this 12 junction on this? We'll come back to it, 13 obviously, if you have questions. But just before 14 we start shifting to another whole subject here, 15 anybody have any further questions on this at the 16 moment? All right. Then proceed. 17 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, as I 18 understand, Judge Segars-Andrews had waived any 19 going into executive session on that issue, so I 20 will proceed to ask Mr. McKenzie. 21 Mr. McKenzie, your client, prior to 22 the appeals process, filed a complaint with the 23 Office of Judicial Conduct; is that correct? 24 MR. McKENZIE: That's correct. 25 MS. BENSON: Did you have concerns 0012 1 about how that complaint was handled? 2 MR. McKENZIE: I did. And one of 3 the -- if you read Professor Crystal's affidavit, 4 he goes into saying that we had to show prejudice 5 on the part of the judge. 6 Obviously, this was an impossible task 7 for my client to do because the Judge admitted in 8 open court that her husband received a large 9 six-figure award on a settlement that she had -- 10 that he had shared with opposing counsel, okay? 11 So we had no way of knowing what the 12 that six figure -- again, as I told you earlier, we 13 had no way of knowing whether it was -- we knew it 14 was six figures, was 100,000 or 999,000 we had no 15 way of knowing. 16 So we -- my client asked me, you know, 17 what is the -- how did he find out this 18 information, what do you do? And I said, if you're 19 not satisfied with the -- if you think the judge 20 has done something unethical, then the only remedy 21 that you have is to go to the commission on 22 Judicial Conduct. 23 At that point in time, he prepared a 24 packet to the commission on Judicial Conduct, and 25 the letter -- 0013 1 MS. BENSON: Mr. McKenzie, it was -- 2 when was that letter dated? 3 MR. McKENZIE: That letter was dated 4 September 20th of 2006. Now, remember -- and I 5 have his packet here -- this is what he sent to 6 Judicial Conduct, so it was mailed United States 7 mail. 8 And I hate to say it but, you know, 9 United States mail is not always what it should be. 10 But I know it probably took a couple days for it to 11 get there and for them to review it. 12 On November 2nd, 2009, a letter came 13 back from the commission on Judicial Conduct. I 14 believe Henry Richardson was the person who wrote 15 that letter, if I'm not mistaken. 16 PROF. FREEMAN: You said 2009. You 17 meant 2006? 18 MR. McKENZIE: I meant 2006, I'm 19 sorry. I apologize. 20 It was the same -- it was within five 21 weeks, I believe, of actually filing the complaint. 22 And the letter basically summarily dismissed the 23 complaint finding no merit and nothing that the 24 judge had done wrong. And all those issues were 25 brought up about the money, about her recusal, 0014 1 about, you know, him wanting to investigate. 2 My client actually and his father 3 actually went to see Mr. Richardson. I was not 4 there during this meeting, but they went to see 5 Mr. Richardson before this letter came back, and 6 apparently they informed Mr. Richardson that I 7 represented them in this case. 8 I received a phone call from 9 Mr. Richardson basically telling me that he was not 10 going to investigate it. There was no merit in 11 this and that it was -- he was summarily dismissing 12 it. 13 This was within a week or two of the 14 actual package being dismissed -- or submitted to 15 him. So my client was left with the position of 16 how do you find prejudice when you have no way of 17 investigating a judge. 18 And so that, you know, as far as he 19 was concerned, you know, we knew that the Court of 20 Appeals was going to kind of mirror the -- what 21 Professor Crystal had said that we had to show some 22 prejudice on the part of the order. 23 We thought the order was prejudicial 24 because obviously we had an adulterous spouse 25 receiving the lion's -- when I say the lion's 0015 1 share, receiving more than 50 percent of the 2 property and 83,000 in attorneys' fees and costs 3 that we felt like she should not have received. 4 But the Court of Appeals held 5 otherwise. But we -- my client at that point, as 6 he had testified earlier, had run out of money, 7 could not afford to appeal to the Supreme Court, so 8 that's where this case basically ended. 9 And as I said before, I actually 10 received a call from Henry Richardson who basically 11 told me that this case was not going to be 12 investigated, they were not even going to open up 13 the file, and it was going to be summarily 14 dismissed. 15 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, Judge 16 Segars-Andrews has submitted for us the letter that 17 was returned by Mr. Richardson, which was in the 18 packet that you were given this morning. 19 And is there anything else that you 20 would add to your testimony, Mr. McKenzie? 21 MR. McKENZIE: No. I just -- the only 22 thing I can add is just that as my client said, the 23 case was a shock to me. And the -- whenever I was 24 in Sumter, and I was physically present on April 25 the 14th obviously I was there making the motion to 0016 1 have the Judge recuse herself. 2 Judge Segars-Andrews was adamant. One 3 of the things that she said in the transcript was 4 she had discussed this matter with her husband, and 5 he felt like she should recuse herself. 6 And so I don't, you know, at this 7 point in time whenever I -- like I said, maybe it's 8 just -- it may be just that I'm a little naive and 9 I'm from a small town, but when I have a judge tell 10 me something on the record, I take it to heart. 11 And, again, I was told twice that this 12 case was not going to be -- that she was going to 13 recuse herself, that we had to try it again. And 14 we felt like that we were going to get a new trial, 15 because the Judge said -- in the transcript she 16 said she felt like she had made a fair ruling, but 17 that she felt also that it's something that she 18 cannot remedy and that we needed to have this case 19 retried. 20 I don't know why Mr. Crystal's 21 affidavit swayed her the way she did after she 22 admittedly told me that she was not going to be 23 swayed. But she did. And she ended up ruling, as 24 I said. 25 And you have the order in front of 0017 1 you, you have the numbers in front of you, and I 2 think the numbers speak for themselves. I think 3 her testimony when she was at the recusal hearing 4 speaks for itself also. 5 MS. BENSON: Thank you, Mr. McKenzie. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Thank you. 7 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, I would 8 have no further questions of this witness. 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Let me see 10 if any member of the commission has questions at 11 this point. 12 Does any member of the commission -- 13 Professor. 14 PROF. FREEMAN: Yes, sir. 15 Something you just said causes me to 16 ask this question. I thought I heard you say that 17 she said she discussed it with her husband. And I 18 see that it looks like it might be page 4 of the 19 transcript. I don't know if you have that or not. 20 MR. McKENZIE: I do have the 21 transcript. Let me find the -- 22 PROF. FREEMAN: It looks like it's 23 kind of cut off. It looks like it's page 4 at the 24 bottom. 25 MR. McKENZIE: I do have that in front 0018 1 of me. 2 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. On line 23 she 3 said: I did not think about it. I heard the case, 4 I decided the case. When you sent me that motion, 5 I thought it was a frivolous motion. And I was 6 talking to my husband about it. And he said, Did 7 you think about this, you know. 8 And I just -- I mean, and it goes on. 9 I don't see in here him saying that she should 10 recuse herself. 11 MR. McKENZIE: And I may be reading 12 that in there. But I mean, to me the whole crux of 13 what -- her telling me was that she discussed it 14 with him and, you know, it was a matter that's kind 15 of like kryptonite, nobody wanted to touch it. 16 PROF. FREEMAN: Well, I see him saying 17 it's an issue, if you think about this. But I just 18 didn't see in the record what you said. 19 MR. McKENZIE: Right. And -- I'm 20 sorry. 21 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay, all right. I 22 just wanted to be sure I was understanding if there 23 wasn't something else. 24 MR. McKENZIE: And if you look on 25 page 3, at the bottom of page 3 of the transcript, 0019 1 there were a lot of comments made off the record in 2 this case. 3 And I don't know why we went off the 4 record. The Judge says, I want to go off the 5 record and make some comments. And I just recall 6 her, like I said, saying this. 7 You know, I have discussed this 8 matter, I have thought about it, I've looked at the 9 canons. I've done everything that I can. And you 10 guys have to try this case over. And she was 11 adamant about that. 12 And I guess maybe I read that into the 13 fact when she said that she discussed it with her 14 husband that he probably thought it was a pretty 15 good idea for her to do it too. 16 And so again, a couple weeks later or 17 in -- on May 3rd, we get the memorandum saying 18 that, you know, after she read Nathan Crystal's 19 affidavit, that we need -- she needs to sit, she 20 has a duty to sit. 21 So -- and I apologize if I'm -- 22 PROF. FREEMAN: That's all right. I 23 just want to be clear on that. 24 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Senator from Lexington 0020 1 had a question. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3 The order that was just passed out -- 4 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 5 SEN. KNOTTS: -- who is Becky H. 6 Simpson? 7 MR. McKENZIE: That would be the -- 8 that would be my client's wife. 9 SEN. KNOTTS: All right. Who is Daisy 10 Simpson? 11 MR. McKENZIE: Daisy Simpson would be 12 my client's mother. 13 SEN. KNOTTS: Okay. The order refers 14 back or starts out, as I'm reading it, talking -- 15 did her -- did mother and father get a divorce 16 also? 17 MR. McKENZIE: The mother and father 18 had started divorce proceedings in 2003. When I 19 say mother and father, mother and father of Bill 20 Simpson and -- 21 SEN. KNOTTS: What's that got to do 22 with this man's divorce? 23 MR. McKENZIE: All right. And what's 24 this got to do with this man's divorce is Bill 25 Simpson and Billy Simpson, they're junior and 0021 1 senior -- 2 SEN. KNOTTS: All right. 3 MR. McKENZIE: -- seated behind me. 4 They own an LLC called Simpson Farms, LLC, which 5 both of them are 50 percent members of. And Judge 6 Segars-Andrews had to take that 50 percent 7 membership interest that Simpson, Jr., owned and 8 decide what interest Becky Simpson owned and -- 9 SEN. KNOTTS: That was the 777,000? 10 MR. McKENZIE: That was part of it, 11 yes, sir. 12 SEN. KNOTTS: Part of it? 13 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. And so she 14 had to take that interest in there, and she's 15 referring back to the property division in Simpson, 16 Sr.'s case because there was a value set on some -- 17 SEN. KNOTTS: It's just sort of 18 confusing when you read it and it says wife. And 19 we're talking about two people who are Simpsons and 20 they both have wives who have the last name 21 Simpson. 22 And when the order refers to wife, 23 you're trying to figure out which wife they're 24 talking about, the mother or the -- 25 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 0022 1 SEN. KNOTTS: Very confusing. 2 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. And it's a 3 confusing order. And that's one of the reasons I 4 appealed it. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other member of the 6 commission have a question at this point? All 7 right. 8 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, at this 9 point I would ask that Judge Segars-Andrews be 10 called upon to respond. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Will you have a seat, 12 sir. 13 MR. McKENZIE: Thank you. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: And stick with us until 15 we try to get this hearing over. 16 Judge, if you could come back up at 17 this point. Please answer counsel's questions. 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: I'd be glad to. 19 BY MS. BENSON: 20 Q. Judge, you've heard the summary of the 21 complaint and I wonder if you would make any 22 comments about it and add your responses. 23 A. First, I would like to begin by 24 showing you my notes from the week of February 25 13th. I do type all my notes. I took the notes 0023 1 out from other hearings. 2 And these are the notes from this 3 hearing on Mr. Simpson's case. This is from the 4 day that they said I was doing instant messaging, 5 and these are all single-space notes that I took on 6 my computer during that day's trial. 7 These all the single-space notes I 8 took on my computer during -- I think it was the 9 16th. I probably did sign a Valentine card for my 10 husband when I was there, but I paid very close 11 attention and took very detailed notes. 12 In fact, I had to take detailed notes 13 because in here -- if you know anything about 14 Family Court, a case like this is determined by the 15 financial declaration and the financial 16 information. 17 Mr. Simpson's financial declaration 18 was not adequate. It said that the property values 19 were to be determined. So I got no information 20 about property values from his side of the case. 21 And it is -- his income was very hard to determine 22 because he and his father had this LLC where all 23 their money is together. 24 So it was very difficult to determine 25 what his income was, what his expenses were. And 0024 1 that is one of the reasons that I awarded the 2 $5,000 to the expert in the other case because they 3 helped me with that. He had no expert or no 4 testimony that could help me with that. 5 The way I determined this case was to 6 put all the assets on a computer program with all 7 the debts all together. And what I did was 8 determine that the husband should get the majority 9 of the assets. I gave him 56 -- 50 percent of the 10 assets. That is taking into consideration the 11 debt. And she got 40 percent of the assets, taking 12 into consideration the debts. The debts were 13 included in that. 14 Then I go to the issue of attorneys' 15 fees. What has not come out is that initially 16 Mr. Simpson had his wife sign an agreement. That 17 agreement gave her, I believe, and I don't remember 18 exactly like, 35- or $40,000 all. And this was an 19 estate worth 7- or $800,000. So she had to hire 20 attorneys to have that agreement overturned, so she 21 could get some assets. 22 That is -- if this case had come up 23 without that fact, he probably would have not -- I 24 would have not ordered him to pay any attorneys' 25 fees except a little bit for the experts because 0025 1 they gave me the information that I had to deal 2 with. 3 His -- his financial declaration was 4 completely inadequate. You know, I really felt bad 5 for him. In fact, I thought he was very credible. 6 Most cases I do 50-50. In fact, the Supreme Court 7 and the Court of Appeals really say 70-30 is too 8 much. So I did about as much of a split as I could 9 possibly do with 60-40. And that would have been 10 it except for the issues of attorneys' fees. 11 If he had not had her sign that 12 agreement, he would have prevailed on every issue, 13 and I would not have ordered attorneys' fees. But 14 having her sign the agreement where she had to hire 15 attorneys to overturn it. She did prevail because 16 she did end up getting her 40 percent of the whole. 17 And I, following the rules of Family Court, the 18 statute and the case law, I had to order attorneys' 19 fees. 20 Now, I'll go into why I recused 21 myself, if that's okay. I completely ruled on the 22 case giving him 60 percent, her 40 percent, and 23 ordered the attorneys' fees. I sent that to all 24 the lawyers in the form of a memorandum and asked 25 Mr. Warner to draft the order. He was actually the 0026 1 attorney. He and Ms. McClaren together. 2 Right after that, I received a motion 3 for me to recuse myself, and it was because my 4 husband 's law partner at that time had put an 5 affidavit in Mr. Simpson, Sr.'s case on the issues 6 of attorneys' fees. And that was just not enough 7 for me to recuse myself. 8 But I mentioned that to my husband and 9 my husband said, Well, you know, we've -- Lon has 10 worked with him on other things. And he reminded 11 me of a case that happened a year before. And so I 12 went back on the record during this hearing. I 13 said, Your motion is frivolous, but I need to 14 recuse myself because my husband's law partner and 15 Ms. McClaren had worked together on this other 16 case, and I need to recuse myself. 17 I work in Charleston County where we 18 almost always have four judges. When we have a 19 potential conflict, even it doesn't rise to the 20 level of a conflict, we go to each other and ask 21 each other to exchange dockets so that we don't 22 have to be here and that we can avoid things like 23 this. And so I really thought that was a reason 24 for me to recuse my self. 25 And any time an attorney asks me, 0027 1 well, can I send you a brief or memorandum on that 2 issue, I love being educated. I will let any 3 lawyer do that and I will entertain what the 4 experts say. When I got the memorandum from Nathan 5 Crystal, it said that I had no duty to disclose any 6 relationship that was past. 7 This had been a past relationship. It 8 had happened a year or two before. I don't know 9 when that case was. And there was no other ongoing 10 working relationship. And so I was in a dilemma at 11 that point. 12 If I had not ruled on the case, I 13 would assume I would have been appealed by the 14 wife. And I would have been overturned, and I 15 would have been directed to rule because there was 16 no conflict. 17 So when they talk about prejudice, the 18 prejudice that Nathan Crystal was talking about was 19 that I need to rule, and the Court of Appeals has 20 to determine whether I had prejudice from my 21 decision. They don't have to go investigate me. 22 That's what the prejudice is. 23 If it turned out that I showed bias to 24 somebody in my decision, the Supreme Court would 25 have found prejudice from the body of my decision. 0028 1 And they didn't. I had a duty to sit, and I really 2 didn't want to. I wanted this thing to go away, 3 because frankly, I knew something like this would 4 probably happen. 5 So here I am, and I'll be glad to 6 answer any questions. 7 Q. Judge, would you have any comments to 8 make concerning the comments made about the Office 9 of judicial conduct and your role as vice chairman 10 with that office? 11 A. I have been with that office for quite 12 a while and have never been involved in a hearing 13 on anything that I had to do with. They go above 14 and beyond to protect the public, and I have 15 nothing that I can say about them. They do 16 everything. 17 I sit on that committee, which means I 18 go up about five times a year for a meeting to sit 19 and judge whether a case needs to be investigated 20 further. I had nothing to do with my cases except 21 in answering it. And I believe you have my answer. 22 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, included in 23 your materials is the Judge's response to a 24 complaint. And, Mr. Chairman, I would have no 25 further questions except some housekeeping matters. 0029 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me see if any 2 commissioner has -- Mr. Sellers. 3 MR. SELLERS: Judge, I want to be sure 4 I understand, when this is all over, what happened. 5 And I think I do now, but I want to be sure. 6 Mr. Simpson and his wife had entered an agreement 7 at the very beginning of this process -- 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 9 MR. SELLERS: -- as I understand it. 10 And if I understand what I've been 11 reading in my file, a judge had actually approved 12 that agreement? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 14 MR. SELLERS: And -- 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: She was not 16 represented by counsel and, in fact, was under some 17 emotional issue at that time. 18 MR. SELLERS: But a judge had, in 19 fact, approved it? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 21 MR. SELLERS: And some judge, other 22 than you, had gone back and allowed her to 23 challenge the agreement? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: They overturned it, 25 that's correct. 0030 1 MR. SELLERS: And so her -- I assume 2 that the lawyers who represented her at the time 3 she came before you been responsible for that 4 proceeding? 5 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 6 MR. SELLERS: Okay. And when it got 7 to you, Mr. Simpson had not presented an adequate 8 financial statement -- 9 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 10 MR. SELLERS: -- to show what his 11 assets were? 12 JUDGE ANDREWS: Or his income. 13 MR. SELLERS: So Mrs. Simpson had -- 14 her counsel retained an expert to come in, and you 15 accepted their numbers, correct? 16 JUDGE ANDREWS: They were the best 17 numbers that I had. 18 MR. SELLERS: Just want to be sure I 19 understand. And then the only part of this that 20 concerns me -- 21 JUDGE ANDREWS: May I correct you on 22 one thing? Initially, I believe it was Judge Young 23 ordered a court-appointed expert. 24 And so I'm not -- who did the 25 appraisals of a lot of the property. So not all of 0031 1 it was done by her. Some of it was by court 2 appointed expert. But I'm assuming that's where 3 the fees went to pay. 4 MR. SELLERS: That expert? 5 JUDGE ANDREWS: Uh-huh. 6 MR. SELLERS: Which you ordered 7 Mr. Simpson to pay that court expenses as well? 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 9 MR. SELLERS: Now, the only part of 10 this that really -- one part of this that concerns 11 me is when you had the hearing on the recusal 12 motion -- 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 14 MR. SELLERS: -- and you announced to 15 everybody that you had made your mind up and you 16 were going to recuse yourself. Then, as I 17 understand it, you changed your mind after 18 Mrs. Simpson went out and retained someone to 19 prepare an affidavit? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: No. No, sir. 21 She retained -- her attorney hired Nathan Crystal 22 who's a professor. He's an expert -- 23 MR. SELLERS: I understand. 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- on ethics. 25 MR. SELLERS: I know him, yeah. 0032 1 JUDGE ANDREWS: Well, he wrote a brief 2 on the issue, and that brief showed me I had a duty 3 to sit, that I had to go ahead and decide this case 4 because not only is a judge required not to hear 5 the cases that she needs to recuse herself on, but 6 a judge is required to hear and to rule on the 7 cases that she cannot recuse herself on. 8 So I'm actually, under the canons, 9 required do this. I wanted out of this case. 10 MR. SELLERS: In Mr. Crystal's 11 opinion? 12 JUDGE ANDREWS: He pointed that out. 13 And when I looked back at the canons, I think he's 14 right. 15 MR. SELLERS: And the issue of the 16 appearance of impropriety didn't at that point in 17 time, at that stage in the proceedings, didn't 18 concern you? 19 JUDGE ANDREWS: Well, because what the 20 canons say is if it's a past working relationship, 21 which it was, then I have no duty to disclose. 22 It's only ongoing working relationships that you 23 disclose. And this thing happened a year or two 24 before. 25 MR. SELLERS: I understand. But you 0033 1 had a hearing where you had announced that 2 basically that you were going to rule one way, and 3 then you turned around and ruled the other. 4 And my question is: Did those events 5 create in your mind the possibility there might be 6 an appearance of impropriety, whether it existed or 7 not? 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: I think there -- yes, 9 it bothered me. It absolutely bothered me. I did 10 not want to rule on this case. I wanted -- I mean, 11 I had already ruled. I already sent out the 12 memorandum and decided everything. 13 But when they immediately sent that 14 motion for me to recuse myself and it was for, in 15 my opinion, a very frivolous reason, I wanted out 16 of this case. But I wasn't going to at that point 17 because that was frivolous. 18 But when I said something to my 19 husband, he reminded of this other business 20 dealing, even though it was past, I felt like that 21 that was enough for me to get out. 22 MR. SELLERS: I understand. And my 23 question really is not whether you should have 24 before or not. But at the hearing you had 25 announced essentially, if I understand it, maybe 0034 1 I'm being misled -- 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: You're not. 3 MR. SELLERS: -- but you had announced 4 on no uncertain terms that you were going to recuse 5 yourself. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Right. 7 MR. SELLERS: And then you did an 8 about-face? 9 JUDGE ANDREWS: I did -- 10 MR. SELLERS: Okay. 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- because of the 12 canon. 13 MR. SELLERS: Did you not consider the 14 fact that just doing the about-face based on what 15 you said in open court might create the appearance 16 of impropriety? 17 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, sir. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Professor. 19 PROF. FREEMAN: There's been talk 20 about this sum of money and six figures and all. 21 Could you just put up -- two things. You had some 22 documents that I think should be marked as exhibits 23 to this hearing. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Those notes, I think 25 her notes I would ask the staff to mark those and 0035 1 then duplicate them so that the members of the 2 commission can have copies of them. 3 (EXH. 1 was enter into the record.) 4 JUDGE ANDREWS: My notes from the 5 hearing? 6 PROF. FREEMAN: Yeah. The notes that 7 you took during trial that you were referring to 8 earlier. I just think that they should be part of 9 the record. 10 JUDGE ANDREWS: All right now. I have 11 to explain, I'm not the best speller. 12 PROF. FREEMAN: Well, that's okay. 13 None of us are. 14 JUDGE ANDREWS: And sometimes I -- you 15 know, when testimony goes quickly, I might not 16 finish one sentence and I'll go to the next. But 17 for better or worse, there they are. 18 PROF. FREEMAN: My question is this: 19 There's been talk about that fee, and then there's 20 some number out there. What is the number, some 21 hundreds of thousands? 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: I don't know. I 23 really -- I have no idea. It was -- it was years 24 ago. 25 PROF. FREEMAN: I know that. But 0036 1 there's been talk about six figures. Is it high 2 six figures? Is it -- 3 JUDGE ANDREWS: I think it was 4 probably around 300,000. That's my guess. 5 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. And that was 6 your husband's share or what was split? 7 JUDGE ANDREWS: I think that was 8 probably my husband's share on that case. 9 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? I 11 got a couple. I'll just -- I need to make sure 12 again I'm understanding everything. 13 There was an agreement that some 14 lawyer apparently drafted and the two of them 15 signed. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I understand 16 the history of this, it went before a Family Court 17 judge and got approved? 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: And then there was a 20 motion filed and the judge disapproved the 21 agreement? 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. And then it 24 was subsequent after that that this divorce action 25 got filed? 0037 1 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. Well, I heard 2 the case after that. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. And you did 4 not preside in any of the rules to show causes or 5 the temporary relief hearings; those were different 6 judges? 7 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I notice in 9 the -- in this order that you signed, it recites 10 that -- I believe his name is Judge Young -- 11 appointed a Burke Watson as an independent 12 appraiser to value the land, equipment, and 13 inventory. 14 Did those exhibits come in too? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: They came into 16 evidence, and there are notes -- information in my 17 notes on those. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. So then my 19 question, I guess, was why was the CPA so important 20 to her if the court had already ordered the 21 appraisal of the assets? 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: Income. I had no idea 23 what his income was because he and father's 24 business were so intertwined and -- 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Did they have tax 0038 1 returns? Were those introduced or not? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: There were no 1099s, 3 no W-2s. If there were tax returns, I don't 4 remember because they were just -- let's put it 5 this way -- they could not have possibly lived the 6 lifestyle they had if he made only what his initial 7 information had disclosed. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. In your 9 order you state that Judge Young had ordered -- as 10 best I can read -- the husband to pay a portion of 11 the wife's attorneys' fee and cost. So this is up 12 past the agreement being set aside? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: I'm not sure what was 14 ordered by Judge Young, except for the appraiser. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Now it says in your 16 order that Judge Young ordered the husband to pay a 17 portion of the wife's attorneys' fees and costs. 18 I'm trying to understand your award of 19 83,000 when you testified that it was primarily 20 because of the agreement. But the agreement 21 occurred before the divorce action to set aside, 22 appears to have occurred before that -- 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: It was the same 24 action. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- and attorneys' fees 0039 1 were awarded on it. 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: It was the same 3 action. But I award attorneys' fees if it goes by 4 what the statute says in which one of it -- if 5 somebody prevails, that's the first thing I look 6 at. 7 This woman would not have prevailed if 8 not for that agreement. She would not have 9 prevailed because she only received 40 percent of 10 the property. Normally they receive 50 percent, in 11 most cases. 12 So she -- he, in the agreement -- she 13 was -- and I'm trying to remember -- she was to 14 stay in the house, but if she married, she had to 15 give the house back. And the whole agreement was 16 she got only 35- to $40,000 of an $800,000 estate. 17 And so she prevailed in the issue. 18 And her attorneys did the work and 19 provided me with the documents I needed. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, let me make sure 21 that I understand this correctly. It was about 22 $777,000 worth of assets. He got 550,000 23 approximately, but he picks up 242,000 of debt. 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: I don't know why 25 that's like it is because that's not the way it 0040 1 was. He got 60 percent of the total including the 2 debt. That was my order. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm looking at the 4 order. That's why I'm trying to understand. I 5 mean, if I take 242,500, approximately, out of what 6 he got, I mean it looks like to me it's almost a 7 50-50 split. 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: When I put it in -- 9 maybe some evaluations are not correct. But when I 10 put it in the program and I did the order, he 11 received 60 percent and that was including the -- 12 that took into -- I used equity, I used equity. I 13 did not -- if there were debts on the property -- 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything you can do to 15 just help me understand this, I would appreciate 16 because -- 17 JUDGE ANDREWS: Well, I will 18 absolutely try, sir. But my intention was that she 19 receive $60,000 -- 60 percent, and she received 40. 20 And that was to be -- that was to include the debt. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I see you 22 have assigned -- it's on page 19 of the order, 23 total to husband comes out to about 325,655 with 24 the debt subtracted from the 555, 200 and -- about 25 234,000 in debt. All right. 0041 1 If you go to the next page on the 2 assets to her, it comes out to 213,876. Now, when 3 I take the -- if you took the award for the 4 attorneys' fees, around 83,000, and put those in, 5 it's just -- it gets pretty close. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Right. Well, if you 7 look there, the debt is before the 60 percent. The 8 debt was included. I don't do attorneys' fees when 9 I do the valuation of property. 10 The valuation of property is a 11 completely different analysis. I valued the 12 property taking into consideration the fault and 13 everything. And that's why she got 40 percent 14 which was net; that included the debt. 15 He got 60 percent of the equity, she 16 got 40 percent of the equity. Then I go to my 17 analysis on attorneys' fees. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Did you 19 compare his attorney fees, to her attorney fees? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: No. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Did you look at her 22 ability to pay with the number of assets she was 23 getting? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: I felt that she had no 25 ability to work and would have no ability to 0042 1 maybe -- to make minimum wage. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: So the award of 3 attorney fees was all her attorney fees or did you 4 apportion any parts of that? 5 JUDGE ANDREWS: It was less than half. 6 I believe a little less than half. Her attorneys 7 did all the work. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: You mean there was more 9 than 83,000 attorney fees to her? 10 JUDGE ANDREWS: Oh, it was probably 11 150- or $160,000. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: On an estate of this 13 size? 14 JUDGE ANDREWS: (Nods head.) 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I want to 16 go back and make sure. We're going to be asked, I 17 suspect, a lot of question about this case. I want 18 to make sure we have a firm understanding of it. 19 There was an agreement she signed. 20 The agreement was approved by a court. She 21 subsequently filed a motion to set aside that 22 agreement. 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: (Nods head.) 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: And the Court set it 25 aside. 0043 1 JUDGE ANDREWS: (Nods head.) 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: According to your 3 decree of divorce, she got an award of attorney 4 fees on that set aside. Your testimony today was 5 you gave her the 83,000 primarily because he had 6 gotten her to sign that agreement? 7 JUDGE ANDREWS: That was a big part of 8 it. I felt that he was -- even though -- I often 9 tell people, You got a good case, but if you 10 overplay, then it turns into a bad case. 11 He took advantage of her, quite 12 frankly, and gave her -- had her sign an agreement 13 where she only was getting less than $40,000. 14 She had to hire an attorney to take 15 care of that and to proceed. And they did not put 16 a reasonable financial declaration in it and 17 couldn't disclose his income, and her attorneys did 18 all the work. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: And, again, going back 20 to your decree, so that I understand this, but that 21 award, that set-aside and that award of attorney 22 fees was before the matter got to you? 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: So you didn't hear any 25 evidence on that, you only have the record to go 0044 1 by? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Right. It was in the 3 same case. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, let's go forward 5 and let me make sure I understand this other 6 hearing. When this issue came up, when he first 7 files his motion on the attorney fees, 8 Mr. McKenzie, I believe is his name, the attorney, 9 and that motion hearing is held, you dismissed that 10 first motion on attorney fees. But that's when you 11 brought up that you -- that there was another 12 matter? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: No. I ruled on the 14 matter. I sent out my instructions with 15 everything, equitable division, attorney fees, the 16 whole nine yards. Then I receive a motion -- 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Correct. 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- from them for me to 19 recuse myself because my husband's law partner 20 had -- 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Correct. 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- entered an 23 affidavit into Mr. Simpson's father's case. I 24 thought that was very frivolous. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: And why did you think 0045 1 it was frivolous? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Because the only 3 reason if there's an ongoing working relationship 4 that's meaningful, an affidavit in a file is not a 5 meaningful working relationship in my opinion. 6 When I said something about that, and 7 I realized that historically the year before, two 8 years before, there had been a working relationship 9 between this lawyer and my husband's law partner, I 10 did think it was my duty to disclose that and to 11 recuse myself. So I did. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: And do I understand 13 correctly, based upon -- and if it's not, tell me, 14 because I'm looking at all of this for the first 15 time -- you made a statement to the effect of that 16 had this come up at the start of this trial, I 17 would have recused myself? 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: If I had remembered 19 this, I would have disclosed it and said, you know, 20 Let's get another lawyer to hear this. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. So at that 22 point he could have gotten another judge, had this 23 been disclosed? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: If I had disclosed it 25 at the beginning of the case -- 0046 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- we could have 3 gotten another lawyer. I didn't remember this. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. 5 JUDGE ANDREWS: And so then when they 6 made their motion and I mentioned it to my husband, 7 he reminded me of this. And so I said, I've got to 8 disclose this. This, you know, looks bad. So I 9 recused myself. 10 Then when I got the information from 11 Nathan Crystal and reviewed the canons, I realized 12 that I had a duty to sit, that I had to continue 13 with the case, that I did not have a reason to 14 recuse myself. And so I had to rule. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: So in that affidavit, 16 what -- because it was -- correct me if I'm wrong, 17 isn't one of the canons you're all supposed to 18 avoid the appearance impropriety? 19 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: They had raised 21 concerns. How, by you going forward, did you feel 22 you were avoiding any appearance of impropriety? 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: I thought I needed to 24 get out of the case. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: That was my 0047 1 understanding of the way you were in the hearing. 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: But according to the 3 canons, as I read them, I had a duty to sit. I did 4 not have a duty to disclose a past working 5 relationship. Only an ongoing working relationship 6 do I have a duty to disclose. Therefore I ruled 7 because I had a duty to rule, according to the 8 canons. 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: To the best of your 10 knowledge, does your husband's law firm have any 11 ongoing other cases with this law firm. 12 JUDGE ANDREWS: No. In fact, my 13 husband's not even with Mr. Shull any longer. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: At the time that this 15 attorney fee affidavit was put in place, was your 16 husband a law partner of Mr. Shull. 17 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: And somebody just 19 raising that, you think is frivolous. 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you tell me why? 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: He put an affidavit in 23 a file there was a past working relationship. He 24 did work with him at that point a few years before. 25 But it was a past working relationship. 0048 1 PROF. FREEMAN: I don't think you 2 understand his question. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think you 4 understand the question either. 5 Professor go ahead. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Would you repeat it, 7 please. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yeah, I'll repeat it. 9 At the time that that affidavit was 10 put in to substantiate those attorneys' fees, was 11 your husband in partnership with Mr. Shull, 12 correct? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. And that was in 14 the old case, father Simpson's case, which had 15 already been completed years before. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. All right. In 17 this case, this case, when he filed the motion, did 18 he file the motion based on that affidavit or 19 another affidavit? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: The past affidavit 21 from the old case. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: From the old case? 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: And he took the 25 position that this indicated that you could be 0049 1 biased? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: And so you considered 4 since it was the old case, that it was frivolous? 5 I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just 6 trying to understand all of this. 7 JUDGE ANDREWS: Right. It was a past 8 working relationship. And yes, I took -- it was a 9 de minimus amount. If my husband's law firm made 10 any money on it, I doubt it. But if they did, I 11 can't imagine what it would have been, peanuts. So 12 I did not consider that -- 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: So that's why you 14 considered that frivolous? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: Correct. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. And then at that 17 point is when you raised -- 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: On my own motion, I 19 want out of the this case because I feel like there 20 is an appearance of impropriety because of a past 21 working relationship. 22 Then upon reviewing the canons, I 23 determined that I had a duty to rule and that it 24 would be up to the Supreme Court or Court of 25 Appeals to determine if I had been prejudiced. 0050 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: And specifically, it's 2 your recollection that you had a duty to stay in 3 there since it was not ongoing; is that correct? 4 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct, sir. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to make sure I 6 understand all of this. It's a lot of material for 7 us. 8 Mr. Sellers, go ahead. 9 MR. SELLERS: Judge, I'm trying to 10 understand too. 11 Did you give Mr. Simpson's attorney 12 the opportunity to brief the issues or to bring in 13 evidence? You know, a judge once told me -- when I 14 first started practicing law, Judge Hemphill 15 (phonetic) told me one day -- or actually, he told 16 a jury one day in a trial I was involved in that an 17 expert is a man you pay to say it your way. 18 And so most experts in cases -- most 19 sides have one expert they hire and an expert 20 somebody else hires. 21 And so when you got Professor 22 Crystal's affidavit, his expert opinion, did you 23 give Mr. Simpson's side the opportunity to go out 24 and hire their expert to suggest to you that 25 perhaps it wasn't appropriate for you? 0051 1 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, sir. I went back 2 to the canons and reviewed the canons myself. 3 MR. SELLERS: I look at those things 4 all the time, and I'm glad somebody's got a clear 5 understanding, because every time I look at one, I 6 feel like it's got at least two ways to read it, 7 maybe a third. 8 And I -- we have an ethics partner in 9 my firm who gets -- we have to go to for opinions 10 all the time because those things are not quite as 11 clear as we would think. Thank you. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. I think 13 Representative Delleney, and then I'll come to you, 14 Senator. 15 REP. DELLENEY: Is there an affidavit 16 for attorneys' fees in this case in the materials 17 we have? Are all the affidavits for attorneys' 18 fees? Like was there -- 19 JUDGE ANDREWS: My guess is the 20 affidavits of attorneys' fees are in the file in 21 Clarendon or Sumter County. 22 REP. DELLENEY: To your recollection, 23 I assume the wife's lawyer submitted an affidavit 24 for attorneys' fees. Did they submit any other 25 affidavits corroborating their affidavit for 0052 1 attorneys' fees? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Not that I recall. I 3 think there may have been some testimony on that. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Now I can't tell from 5 this. And that's why we're trying to get all of 6 this clear. I think the Senator had a question. 7 We'll go to that and we'll come back to this to see 8 if we can get all this clear. Senator from 9 Lexington, and Professor right after that. 10 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 Let me get something clear. Was any 12 money derived by your family, your husband or his 13 law partner, which you said derived from the 14 previous case of the father's divorce. 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: Not to my knowledge. 16 There was an affidavit placed in there. My guess 17 is -- 18 SEN. KNOTTS: What did the affidavit 19 say? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: It was an affidavit 21 regarding either Mr. Warner's or Mr. McClaren's 22 attorneys' fees just to verify, you know. 23 SEN. KNOTTS: In what case? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: In the prior case. 25 SEN. KNOTTS: In the Simpson, Sr.'s 0053 1 case? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct, sir. 3 SEN. KNOTTS: So that one of them were 4 involved somehow or another with the first divorce 5 of the father? 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: They represented the 7 mother, his mother. 8 SEN. KNOTTS: His mother. And 9 therefore, there were some -- those checks that was 10 on the wall in the attorney's office, do you know 11 if they represented any funds that was derived from 12 that case? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, sir. I've never 14 heard of those checks. 15 SEN. KNOTTS: You've never heard of 16 those checks. And your husband, after all this has 17 come back, you and your husband had a sit-down and 18 went over this so you'd be prepared to answer any 19 questions about that case before this committee? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, sir. I mean, I'll 21 be glad to answer anything I can or get any 22 information you want. 23 SEN. KNOTTS: You can't answer it if 24 you haven't asked him, right? You can't answer 25 something you don't know. 0054 1 But don't you think that you should 2 have, knowing you were coming up here with this 3 complaint, and knowing that you had set aside or 4 was going to recuse, then for some unknown reason 5 out the clear blue, you go back and hear the case? 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Well, sir, I had 7 already heard the case. 8 SEN. KNOTTS: Don't you think that you 9 owe this committee an answer to some of those 10 issues and you should have did due diligence to be 11 able to give us those answers -- 12 JUDGE ANDREWS: Well, sir -- 13 SEN. KNOTTS: -- if everything's on 14 the up and up? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: Sir, there was a case 16 either a year or two before -- 17 SEN. KNOTTS: Yeah. 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- and I really -- I 19 don't know the people's name. I don't know what it 20 was about. But I remember them talking about that 21 there was a large fee. And that's why I thought I 22 should get out of the case, and I wanted to get out 23 of the case. 24 SEN. KNOTTS: Did you think you should 25 get out of the case because you figured that large 0055 1 fee was from the father's case? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, no, no. This case 3 was representing somebody else. It had nothing to 4 do with this matter. 5 SEN. KNOTTS: Okay. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Nothing to do with 7 this matter. It was -- like I said, I don't know 8 the people, but I believe they were from North 9 Carolina. Well, maybe not. 10 SEN. KNOTTS: Okay. 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: It had nothing to do 12 with this case. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Professor 14 Freeman. 15 PROF. FREEMAN: I just want to be sure 16 that I got facts right here in the record. 17 My understanding is -- do you have 18 your order in front of you, Judge? 19 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, I do, sir. 20 PROF. FREEMAN: On page 23 at the 21 bottom, the fees -- it looks like the fees claimed 22 by the wife's lawyers was 156,079 bucks. 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 24 PROF. FREEMAN: 156,000. And then I 25 believe paragraph 77 on the next page, you cut that 0056 1 fee in half, correct? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. 3 PROF. FREEMAN: So they had a very 4 fancy fee request, and you cut it. Looking back on 5 page 21 of 25 on the issues of the defendant's 6 fees, paragraph 67, it says there: 7 "There was no reply testimony from the 8 plaintiff, and defendant's testimony in exhibits 9 concerning attorneys' fees are uncontradicted." 10 So there was no opposition put up to 11 those numbers? 12 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct, sir. 13 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. And I may be 14 not hearing things right, but it seems to me that 15 much of the detail in the case, facts in the case, 16 really came in from the wife's side -- 17 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 18 PROF. FREEMAN: -- and the lawyers on 19 the wife's side with asset values not being argued 20 for by the husband. 21 No -- typically, is it not true, 22 Judge, that where there's a valuation issue, one 23 side has one expert with a, you know, high as the 24 moon-ish number. And then the other side comes in 25 and says it's low, and it often ends up in between. 0057 1 But no expert valuation at all by the 2 husband in this case? 3 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 4 PROF. FREEMAN: And there were also -- 5 you had to go -- I believe in this order there's 6 some talk about the husband's salary on page 7. 7 Help me with this. Paragraph 28, 8 First, financial declaration, gross income. 9 Paragraph 28, page 7, it looks like its 1730 a 10 month. That's how much you claimed he was making 11 which is up around $20,000 a year, something like 12 that. 13 His latest declaration was roughly, 14 you know, four or five times as much? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: That is correct. 16 PROF. FREEMAN: Does that indicate 17 perhaps a lack of candor the first time around? 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 19 PROF. FREEMAN: Are you supposed to be 20 candid in your financial declarations? 21 JUDGE ANDREWS: They're sworn 22 documents, sir. 23 PROF. FREEMAN: Is it possible that 24 maybe there was some obstructionist behavior or a 25 lack of diligence on the husband's side that made 0058 1 this a complicated case? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 3 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions at 5 this point? 6 Counsel, have you got any questions? 7 I want to go back -- have you got one, Senator 8 Nicholson? Go ahead. 9 SEN. NICHOLSON: Just one question. 10 In reference to Professor Freeman's statement about 11 the attorneys' fees which is 156,000, and I think 12 you said that you cut that in half. But that was 13 just his part to pay, the total attorneys' fees was 14 still 156,000, right? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct. 16 SEN. NICHOLSON: But he just had to 17 pay 50 percent because you really didn't cut it in 18 half, it was just half that he had to pay. But the 19 total attorney fees was 156,000, right? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct, sir. 21 She had to pay that half. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 23 Let me -- I want to go back and make sure I 24 understand one other thing very clearly. 25 I think it's Professor Crystal? 0059 1 JUDGE ANDREWS: Nathan Crystal. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Crystal's memo, you 3 read that, you reversed yourself on recusal? 4 JUDGE ANDREWS: I went back and 5 reviewed the canons and felt like I had a duty to 6 go forward and leave it up -- I had already heard 7 the case -- leave it up to the Court of Appeals or 8 the Supreme Court to determine whether I had had 9 prejudice. 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: And there was no 11 subsequent hearing. The other side, did they get a 12 copy of it? Have a chance to respond to the -- 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: They could have filed 14 a motion. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- affidavit? 16 JUDGE ANDREWS: They could have filed 17 another motion if they had liked, but I received no 18 additional motions. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: So there was no 20 hearing. After you made your oral -- 21 JUDGE ANDREWS: Right. A judge's 22 order is not final until -- 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Until it's signed. 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: And after I did 25 further research after the memorandum brief by 0060 1 Professor Crystal, I changed my order. I felt like 2 I had a duty to rule as much as I didn't want to. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Trying to 4 make sure I understand the events. Thank you. 5 Yes, sir, Professor. 6 PROF. FREEMAN: And your -- just I 7 think I know the answer to this -- but your 8 decision to go ahead and rule, and that it was 9 proper for you to rule, was before the Court of 10 Appeals and affirmed by the Court of Appeals? 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: That's correct, sir. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Any further 13 questions at this point? You want to go ahead and 14 do the housekeeping. I want to call Mr. McKenzie 15 back. I've got a couple questions for him. Go 16 ahead and do the housekeeping so we don't have to 17 keep going back and forth. 18 BY MS. BENSON: 19 Q. Judge Segars-Andrews, have you sought 20 or received the pledge of any legislator prior to 21 this date? 22 A. No, ma'am. 23 Q. Have you sought or been offered a 24 conditional pledge or support of any legislature 25 pending the outcome of your screening? 0061 1 A. No, ma'am. 2 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 3 contact members of the general assembly on your 4 behalf? 5 A. No, ma'am. 6 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 7 commission? 8 A. No, ma'am. 9 Q. Do you understand that you're 10 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 11 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 12 Commission's report? 13 A. I understand. 14 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 15 guidelines on pledging? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And are you aware that the penalty for 18 violating the pledging rules are that it would be a 19 misdemeanor and, upon conviction, a violator must 20 be fined not more than a thousand dollars or 21 imprisoned not more than 90 days? 22 A. Yes, ma'am. 23 MS. BENSON: Mr. Chairman, I would 24 note that the Lowcountry Citizens Committee 25 reported that Judge Segars-Andrews is well 0062 1 qualified for each of the nine evaluative criteria. 2 And I would note for the record that 3 any concerns raised during the investigation have 4 been incorporated into my questioning. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: One other question from 6 before. And then if something comes up, I'll get 7 you to come back up so you can respond. 8 This particular decree that we've got 9 here, did you draft this or did her lawyers draft 10 this? 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: You know, I send out 12 instructions for things to be drafted, and I did 13 receive an order back. But it was not an order 14 that was acceptable to me, so I had to redo it. 15 And so it is my order. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: This is your order 17 here? 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Are those documents, 20 that memorandum on the -- and what they submitted, 21 is that available? 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: I would imagine it's 23 in Clarendon County or Sumter County in the case 24 file. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. 0063 1 Yes, the senator from Lexington. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: One final question. 3 In the assets of the LLC, the farm 4 between the father and the son, did you -- did you 5 back out the portion of the assets of that total 6 company to equal the assets that would attain to 7 the son? 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. 9 SEN. KNOTTS: So the 775,000, whatever 10 it is, was the son's portion -- 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: All right. Let me 12 look. 13 SEN. KNOTTS: -- of his assets and not 14 any of his father's. 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: I'm sure I did not 16 include the father's assets. I don't remember the 17 number, sir. I think it has down here Simpson 18 Farm, LLC, was worth $299,825. That was his share. 19 SEN. KNOTTS: That was his share, not 20 the total share? 21 JUDGE ANDREWS: The son's share. 22 SEN. KNOTTS: So it would have been 23 worth about 600,000? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. 25 SEN. KNOTTS: Did you back out any 0064 1 debt owed on that? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: That was the -- that 3 was the equity as it was presented, and I 4 believe -- 5 SEN. KNOTTS: Did you have it 6 appraised, all of it? 7 JUDGE ANDREWS: I think the 8 appraisal -- there was an appraisal, and the 9 testimony came in perhaps from an appraisal from 10 the father's case, the old case that was a year or 11 two before. 12 SEN. KNOTTS: It was an old appraisal? 13 JUDGE ANDREWS: It was probably a year 14 or two before, whenever that case was done. I 15 don't think anybody ever did an appraisal after 16 that. That was the best evidence I had as to what 17 it was worth. 18 SEN. KNOTTS: So would you have taken 19 the debt at that time on that -- 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: That would have been 21 excluded. 22 SEN. KNOTTS: Okay. Thank you. 23 JUDGE ANDREWS: This was -- this was 24 net. They were net values. This was a net value 25 that gave him 60 percent. 0065 1 SEN. KNOTTS: All right. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: You've got all your 3 housekeeping things done? 4 MS. BENSON: Yes. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: You can have a seat. I 6 need to call Mr. McKenzie back and ask him a few 7 more questions. 8 Mr. McKenzie, this reference in this 9 decree -- and the Professor asked about it -- to 10 financial declarations -- 11 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- can you tell me a 13 little bit about that. I'm interested in knowing 14 something about it. Why was that financial 15 declaration adjusted, do you recall? 16 MR. McKENZIE: I don't recall other 17 than, and the Judge is absolutely correct, when you 18 have -- and we all know this, this is from personal 19 experience -- farming operations, they don't -- 20 it's very difficult to value or determine what a 21 person makes running a farm simply because, as most 22 farming operations do, if they sell their crop, 23 they're borrowing money against the last year and 24 they're paying off that debt. 25 And so his income tax returns, 0066 1 everything was presented to the Court and those 2 were made exhibits. And I -- just to back up a 3 little bit, if you want to know about the 4 subsequent, you know, the appraisal of the 5 property, all that -- 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir, I'm getting 7 ready to ask you about that too. Let me make sure 8 on the income, did you introduce -- do you recall 9 whether or not the tax returns were introduced? 10 MR. McKENZIE: I recall the tax 11 returns being -- everything financially was 12 introduced for her to look at. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, tell 14 me about the valuations. 15 MR. McKENZIE: The valuation was 16 ordered by Judge Young. He actually -- I think 17 Burke Watson out of Sumter was actually the person 18 who was ordered to do the valuations probably. 19 So going into this final hearing, we 20 basically presented the judge, here's the orders, 21 here's everything basically, all the property's 22 been valued. So it wasn't a situation where this 23 attorney had to do this, this attorney had to do 24 that. The judge had already ordered that. 25 And if you look on page 16 -- I'm 0067 1 sorry -- let me get the proper page. Page 12 of 2 her order, she talks about the previous attorneys' 3 fees that had been paid in this case. Page 12 of 4 25. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I'm at 6 page 12. 7 MR. McKENZIE: If you look at page -- 8 paragraph 42, it says $16,000, husband claims from 9 paying wife under the unfair agreement. He 10 actually paid her $16,000 toward performance of 11 that agreement. 12 And what Judge Segars-Andrews has not 13 told this panel under is that other agreement, she 14 got custody of the kids, she got the house for a 15 year without having to pay anything to the husband. 16 The husband was paying her $5,000 a year for a 17 period of four or five years, and giving her a lump 18 sum amount of money. Okay. 19 At that time she was actually having 20 an open notorious affair with another man, and she 21 jumped on that agreement. That agreement was 22 overturned by a judge six months after she signed 23 it. 24 And so one of the things that we claim 25 was that he had partially performed under that 0068 1 agreement and should be given credit for that. The 2 Judge found that agreement was unconscionable. And 3 so as a result, she gets no credit. 4 Well, what happened subsequent to 5 that, we went to Judge Marion Myers because the 6 wife, they claimed, had no assets and had no 7 ability to earn any income. Judge Myers ordered 8 $37,500 in attorneys' fee in an advance to come 9 from the husband. And that would be an advance 10 towards equity division. 11 Well, the Judge found that that was 12 her separate property along with a Kia Sephia, 13 which would be her separate property. 14 So there was a lot of things about 15 this order that we -- obviously whenever we -- he 16 already paid $37,500 in attorneys' fees. He 17 already paid $16,000 toward equity division. So -- 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: And he got no credit, 19 is that what you're saying? 20 MR. McKENZIE: He got no credit for 21 it, none. And so we were -- that's why you have to 22 understand, whenever we get this order back, we're 23 a little bit shocked because then you start putting 24 those numbers in there, and you start putting the 25 attorneys' fees that were ordered, which is 83,000, 0069 1 so if you look at the total amount of attorneys' 2 fees my client paid, you got to add that $37,500 3 back in there and $83,000 which was the -- what 4 Judge Segars-Andrews' ordered. So now he's at a 5 number that looks more like $120,000 in attorneys' 6 fees that he paid in this case. 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, let me 8 ask you, were there any -- do you recall any 9 affidavits being put in on attorneys' fees at this 10 hearing? 11 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Who put those in? 13 MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Warner put in 14 affidavits, and that's what we're trying -- I'm 15 hoping my office will fax that to us. 16 Mr. Warner put in an affidavit for 17 attorneys' fees. I am almost -- I can't recall, 18 but I'm almost positive we put in an attorney's fee 19 affidavit also because it was marital fault. I'm 20 almost positive we put in an attorneys' fees 21 affidavit because of marital fault. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Those were 23 put in at the hearing? 24 MR. McKENZIE: At the hearing. And I 25 don't recall whether it was in this hearing or -- 0070 1 you got to understand that the son was also, 2 Simpson, Jr., was sued in his mother's and father's 3 divorce. So he was a party in that action also. 4 So that's why the Lon Shull affidavit 5 was important to us. Because Lon Shull wrote an 6 affidavit against Simpson, Jr., in a previous case 7 saying attorneys' fees, the $365,000 which was in 8 the father's case, were proper. Okay? And so we 9 felt like -- 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Give me that figure 11 again, just approximate. 12 MR. McKENZIE: I think it's $365,000 13 in the father's case. And Mr. Shull had presented 14 that affidavit in the first case, but Mr. Simpson, 15 Jr., was a party to that action subsequent and was 16 a -- he could have been made to pay those 17 attorneys' fees in that first case. 18 And it was Mr. Shull's affidavit, if 19 you look at it, it references that caption of 20 Simpson Sr., Jr., Simpson Farms, LLC, and Simpson, 21 Sr. So it's all of those parties. And that's why 22 we thought the affidavit wasn't frivolous, it was 23 right on point, because he had testified against my 24 client in a previous case. 25 And so that's why we thought, Judge, 0071 1 you need to look at this because we didn't know 2 Mr. Shull was with Mr. Andrews', we didn't know 3 Mr. Andrews your husband. But now that we found 4 out all this subsequent business, we have an 5 affidavit where Mr. Shull, who's your husband's law 6 partner, testified against my client in a previous 7 case, and you need to look at that. 8 So we didn't think that was frivolous 9 at all. But then when we got that, she said, I'm 10 not going -- not even going to consider that 11 because I think that's frivolous. What I am going 12 to consider is this amount of money, which she says 13 was a large six-figure sum. I don't know what sum 14 it was, I have no idea. But obviously at that 15 hearing she probably had some idea, I don't know. 16 I have no idea. I have no way of knowing. 17 So there's a -- you know, obviously 18 when we got this order, my client is paying 19 $120,000 worth of attorneys' fees or more, and 20 partially performed under the previous agreement 21 that wasn't as one-sided as you would like to think 22 it is. She was living in, as I said, an adulterous 23 relationship. She got custody of her kids. Now my 24 client gets custody of the kids in his new order -- 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that. 0072 1 MR. McKENZIE: -- and she moves to 2 Colorado. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: When did the -- to the 4 best of your recollection, when did the affidavits 5 for attorneys' fees and divorce action go in? Was 6 it at the conclusion? In the middle -- 7 MR. McKENZIE: I would think that 8 would have been at the conclusion. I think they 9 would have been entered in without objection by 10 either party. 11 That's pretty customary in a Family 12 Court action that both parties submit their 13 attorneys' fees and the judge makes a ruling based 14 upon the factors that are laid out in Glasscock and 15 the other cases that award attorneys' fees. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, let me 17 move forward and make sure. The memorandum 18 following the divorce action, do you have a copy of 19 that memorandum? 20 MR. McKENZIE: Yes. Yes, sir. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we get -- can you 22 provide that to our staff? I'd like a copy of that 23 memorandum. 24 All right. Subsequent to that 25 memorandum, did you see the first proposed decree? 0073 1 MR. McKENZIE: I did. And that's what 2 prompted me to investigate why, because when I got 3 that and I saw all these things that were being 4 said, it prompted me to investigate who, you know, 5 why this order came out so -- what I considered to 6 be one-sided and my client did too. 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: And then did the final 8 decree come out after your motion hearing? 9 MR. McKENZIE: The final decree came 10 out -- 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: That the Judge said she 12 wrote, not the proposed one that the other side 13 said. 14 MR. McKENZIE: It came out after the 15 motion, yes, sir. She did rule. She sent out this 16 in this memo that's just one -- one-paragraph memo 17 that says, I've read Professor Crystal's memorandum 18 and I have a duty to sit. And boom. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I think 20 Mr. Sellers had questions. Did you -- 21 MR. SELLERS: I think he answered 22 most. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: He's answered them. 24 Professor, go ahead. 25 PROF. FREEMAN: If I under -- Sir? 0074 1 MR. McKENZIE: I have the attorneys' 2 fees affidavit in the first, in the father's case 3 and the son's case which the mother sued, and it 4 was $361,220.97. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Sir, I 6 think the Professor had some questions. 7 PROF. FREEMAN: I did. 8 If I understand it -- now let's look 9 at pages 19 and 20 in here of the order. You're 10 upset that the wife -- the husband had to pay the 11 wife 213876, that's the equitable distribution 12 split? 13 MR. McKENZIE: That's correct. 14 PROF. FREEMAN: Plus the attorneys' 15 fees of -- 16 MR. McKENZIE: 83. 17 PROF. FREEMAN: 83, plus another 37 of 18 attorneys' fees? 19 MR. McKENZIE: 37, 5. And he already 20 had partially performed and paid $16,000 in money 21 to her under the previous agreement. 22 PROF. FREEMAN: But isn't the 37 in 23 the marital property split that she gets? Isn't 24 that accounted for. 25 There's a black band on here, sir. 0075 1 You see that black band on page 19? 2 But isn't really that reflecting a 3 setoff that he gets for the 37,000, 5, because if 4 you add up the numbers we can see, they're off by 5 about $38,000 with that being the 37, 5 that's down 6 there, so he's not paying twice for those 7 attorneys' fees, he's getting credit. 8 MR. McKENZIE: I think I'm not -- if I 9 may have a better copy. 10 PROF. FREEMAN: I can read the word 11 "cash" and there's a number missing, but the plug 12 number for the number that's missing between the 13 numbers that you can see and 221,800 is right at 14 around 37-, $38,000. 15 So he's not coming out of pocket again 16 or on top of everything else for this 375. He's 17 getting credit for it, isn't he? 18 MR. McKENZIE: I'm looking. Let me 19 look in my booklet, because I think I have a better 20 copy of it. You're right. I have a better copy of 21 that. 22 PROF. FREEMAN: Could you read it into 23 the record what that line item is? 24 MR. McKENZIE: Yes. And it says, 25 "Cash paid to wife during litigation pursuant to 0076 1 Judge Myers' order." 2 PROF. FREEMAN: Which would be the 3 37,500 -- 4 MR. McKENZIE: $37,500, you're 5 absolutely correct. 6 PROF. FREEMAN: Okay. 7 MR. McKENZIE: Okay. 8 SEN. KNOTTS: Mr. Chairman. 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Senator from Lexington. 10 SEN. KNOTTS: And also on page 14 of 11 25, it states it there also, "Cash paid to wife 12 during litigation pursuant to Judge Myers." 13 MR. McKENZIE: Right. 14 SEN. KNOTTS: Okay. 15 MR. McKENZIE: That was included in 16 the total amount of assets which was then divided. 17 So I guess in reality he had to divide that with 18 her. So he had, I guess if I'm doing my math 19 right, then she -- he ended up having to paid half 20 twice, if that's correct. 21 So if she -- if the Judge puts that 22 37, 5 in the total amount and then divides it, 23 doesn't he have to pay half again? 24 PROF. FREEMAN: Well, the marital 25 property that's being split up looks to me to be 0077 1 accounted there on page 19. 2 MR. McKENZIE: Right. And it's 3 555155. And if you do -- if you add his and her 4 221866, I'm assuming you would get that 77731 5 number. 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sellers. 7 MR. McKENZIE: I know this is clear as 8 muddy water. 9 MR. SELLERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 10 You through, Professor? 11 PROF. FREEMAN: Yeah. Well, I just 12 want to be clear on this. 13 I'm just not seeing the 37, 5 on the 14 marital assets that are being split up on -- 15 MR. McKENZIE: All right. 16 PROF. FREEMAN: -- on page 19. 17 MR. McKENZIE: All right. If you -- 18 on page 19 you're saying they're not -- well, 19 they're also at the bottom. The 37,5 is in the 20 wife's portion. 21 PROF. FREEMAN: That's right. 22 MR. McKENZIE: But the total amount of 23 the marital assets the Judge finds is 777, which 24 the husband's already paid her 37,500 of. And 25 that's what I'm -- 0078 1 PROF. FREEMAN: Well, the marital 2 assets that I'm looking at here on page 19, 3 paragraph 60, looks like a total of -- oh, okay. 4 I'm with you. 5 MR. McKENZIE: You follow what I'm 6 saying? I think he ends up having to pay at least 7 half again. 8 PROF. FREEMAN: At least half. Okay. 9 Was that ever raised on appeal? 10 MR. McKENZIE: It was not raised on 11 appeal. That was not raised on appeal because, as 12 I said, we got this order, we went a different 13 route. And we thought we were getting it 14 overturned. 15 MR. SELLERS: Mr. Chairman -- 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir, Mr. Sellers, 17 Go ahead. 18 MR. SELLERS: -- I'm not going to try 19 to understand the math, and I don't think that's 20 really something that concerns me. 21 Did you file any opposition to the 22 amount of attorneys' fees that the wife claimed -- 23 wife's attorney claimed she had incurred and was 24 entitled to in the action; did you oppose that? 25 MR. McKENZIE: Did I oppose that? And 0079 1 that's the question I don't know the answer to. 2 I'm pretty sure I put Jan Warner on the stand in 3 both of those cases and asked him about an hourly 4 rate, billable rate. 5 I know that I actually called other 6 attorneys and that's one of the things I will 7 hopefully find out when I get the affidavits for 8 attorneys' fees in. But I know I actually called 9 two local attorneys in the father's case to oppose 10 that because the affidavit was so substantial. It 11 was $360-some-odd thousand dollars. 12 MR. SELLERS: You were involved in 13 that case as well? 14 MR. McKENZIE: I was. I represented 15 the father also, yes. 16 MR. SELLERS: Once you learned in the 17 Judge's memo that she was going to change her mind 18 and not recuse herself, did you attempt to in any 19 way, by filing a motion, a memo, affidavit or 20 anything, to challenge her decision -- 21 MR. McKENZIE: I -- 22 MR. SELLERS: -- before it went on 23 appeal? 24 MR. McKENZIE: I did. A 59E motion, I 25 think a 59, 52, and 60 motion, all incorporated in 0080 1 one to reconsider, overturn, whatever. 2 MR. SELLERS: Did you present anything 3 to suggest that Professor Crystal's opinion might 4 not be worth -- 5 MR. McKENZIE: I believe I put in 6 there that I thought that Professor Crystal's 7 opinion was based on incorrect facts. And I think, 8 as I recall, the Judge issued just another denial, 9 one-page denial and said, you know, not going to 10 reconsider. 11 Yeah, that's how I got all these 12 issues preserved. I just had to file a 59E motion 13 and the 60 motions to be able to preserve the 14 issues for appellate review. And I did that, so. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions at 16 this point? 17 MR. McKENZIE: I can hand you a letter 18 that I sent to the judge that's dated April 25th 19 that goes into my -- why I thought that Professor 20 Crystal's affidavit was incorrect. So apparently, 21 I did respond that way. And then I did a 59E 22 motion. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we get a -- I'd 24 like a copy of that. I'd like to see it. 25 And staff, would you all make a copy 0081 1 for me and give him back his original so -- I don't 2 want to keep his documents. 3 Judge, you want a copy of that too? 4 JUDGE ANDREWS: Certainly. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Any more 6 questions at this point? I think the Judge wants 7 an opportunity to respond. 8 Let me know. I don't mean to call you 9 back up. If there's something you want to respond 10 to, please go ahead. 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: It's very difficult to 12 read, and I don't have my own copy of this order. 13 But I did put the entire 37,500 into her category 14 as her share of the property in her 40 percent. 15 And again, the attorneys' fees were 16 awarded because of, as I guess as I stated earlier, 17 the agreement which only provided that she -- I 18 felt like she was being railroaded because of her 19 behavior. 20 And certainly she didn't deserve half, 21 but she deserved something. She had to hire 22 lawyers to get something other than being able to 23 stay in the house for a year and $35,000 out of 24 more than a $600,000 estate. 25 Any further questions? 0082 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Commissioners, do you 2 have any further questions? 3 MR. HARRELL: I just have one. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir, Mr. Harrell. 5 MR. HARRELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 6 Judge, when you became aware that Lon 7 Shull had written the affidavit for the prior case, 8 were you also aware at that time that Mr. Simpson, 9 Jr., was a party to that action, a party to that 10 first action? 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes. Years before, 12 yes. 13 MR. HARRELL: Let me state it another 14 way to make sure I understand your answer, years 15 before. 16 But you were aware when you knew of 17 that affidavit that there was an affidavit that had 18 been written by Mr. Shull out of Mr. Andrews' 19 office that was adverse to Mr. Simpson, Jr.? 20 JUDGE ANDREWS: In a prior action. 21 MR. HARRELL: In a prior action. 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: I did not think that 23 really arose to any conflict. 24 MR. HARRELL: Thank you, Judge. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further -- yes, 0083 1 sir, Representative Delleney. 2 REP. DELLENEY: Judge, could I ask you 3 something? 4 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. 5 REP. DELLENEY: I know you read the 6 judicial canons. But after you had so emphatically 7 announced to all of the parties that you were going 8 to recuse yourself and then after you got this 9 memorandum or whatever from Professor Crystal, you 10 determined otherwise? 11 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 12 REP. DELLENEY: But there was no 13 hearing to explain that or anything to the parties, 14 right? 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: No, sir. I had ruled 16 on the record and I had not signed an order. But 17 when I got that affidavit -- that brief and looked 18 at the canons, I thought I had a duty to rule and 19 proceed and let the Supreme Court decide if there 20 had been prejudice. 21 REP. DELLENEY: Well, in hindsight, do 22 you think that your recusing yourself on the record 23 so emphatically and then flipping around, deciding 24 based on Professor Crystal's memorandum that you 25 should go ahead and sit, do you not think that 0084 1 created an experience of impropriety? 2 JUDGE ANDREWS: If I had to do it over 3 again, sir, I would have called another hearing and 4 let them know that I had reviewed things and that I 5 had to change -- I was wrong. 6 REP. DELLENEY: So you don't think 7 that there was any appearance of impropriety? 8 JUDGE ANDREWS: In my opinion, after 9 the case was over, I think that there was, in my 10 opinion, yes. But when I reviewed the canons, the 11 issue was not something that I should have or had 12 to disclose, and so I had a duty to proceed. So I 13 proceeded. 14 REP. DELLENEY: But my question is 15 under the totality of certain -- recognizing that 16 maybe there was a conflict here between your 17 reading the canons and considering that you had a 18 duty to proceed, but having already announced to 19 all the parties that you were not going proceed, 20 you were in fact going to recuse yourself, do you 21 not think that the canon that deals with an 22 appearance of impropriety trumped the duty to 23 proceed? 24 JUDGE ANDREWS: I did not at that 25 time, sir. I thought from when I read it, it was 0085 1 up to the Supreme Court to decide. 2 REP. DELLENEY: What about now? 3 JUDGE ANDREWS: Now I would have had 4 another hearing. 5 REP. DELLENEY: Thank you. 6 JUDGE ANDREWS: Anything further? 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: The one thing I'm -- 8 see if maybe you can address it some way. The one 9 question that's going to come up, in my opinion, as 10 we look at this and among -- I'm talking about 11 members of the general assembly -- the question 12 they're going to have is that the record would seem 13 to state that had you made this revelation at the 14 start of this case, he would had you step aside, 15 and that your failure to do that, for whatever 16 reason, has now denied him the ability to have that 17 happen? 18 JUDGE ANDREWS: I would have given him 19 the -- if I had remembered that case, I would have 20 disclosed it and given him the opportunity -- 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. 22 JUDGE ANDREWS: -- to say, Do you want 23 me to try to get another judge here, because that's 24 what I would have done in Charleston with all the 25 judges. And it's so easy to do that, but I didn't 0086 1 remember it. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: But I guess I'll go 3 back to the law of equity on this, had he an 4 opportunity, had that been revealed, that I suspect 5 he would taken. But the failure for it to be 6 revealed denied him that opportunity. 7 And yet you felt strongly enough in 8 the courtroom to say, I'm out of this. And then 9 with the professors' -- that's hired by the other 10 side -- opinion, you come back and reverse yourself 11 and he has no way to recoup the loss that he 12 suffered at the front of the case from his 13 perspective because it was never revealed to him. 14 That sets a troubling tone in there. 15 JUDGE ANDREWS: I see your point, sir. 16 I did what I thought was right. I had already 17 heard the case, I ruled on the case, and then these 18 matters came up. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Anybody 20 else have any other questions? All right. 21 All right. This concludes this 22 portion of the screening process. As you know, the 23 record will remain open until the report is 24 published and you may be called back at such time. 25 I would have to tell the other witnesses that they 0087 1 are subject to being called back if this commission 2 feels that it needs to get some further information 3 on this. 4 Judge, I just remind you of the 5 48-hour rule and ask you to be mindful of that. So 6 mindful that if anyone inquires with you about 7 whether or not they may advocate for you in the 8 event that this panel should screen you out, that 9 you will carefully remind them of the 48-hour rule. 10 JUDGE ANDREWS: Yes, sir. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, we thank you 12 for offering. We thank you for your service to the 13 people of South Carolina. 14 To those of you who came and 15 testified, thank you for coming appearing before 16 the commission. 17 This record will stay open until we do 18 that with every case. And you could be subject to 19 further questions to you. 20 With that, all of you are free to go. 21 We're going off the record for just one moment. 22 (Judge Andrews exited the room.) 23 (Off-the-record discussion.) 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Y'all, we're going to 25 reverse. One in the afternoon, one that's short 0088 1 and one that's longer, if that's okay. If nobody 2 has any objection, I'll just handle that as an 3 administrative matter. 4 With that, we will stand in recess for 5 30-minute Senate time for lunch. 6 (A lunch recess was taken from 7 3:17 p.m. to 3:49 p.m.) 8 (Judge Goldstein entered the room.) 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go 10 back on the record since we're so overwhelmingly on 11 schedule today. 12 And we've got before us the Honorable 13 Diane Schafer Goodstein who's offering for Circuit 14 Court, First Circuit, Seat Number 2. 15 Before I start, did you have any -- 16 anybody here that you want to introduce to us? 17 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: My beloved is here, 18 Arnold Goodstein. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Good to have you, sir. 20 MR. GOODSTEIN: Thank you. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, would you 22 raise your right hand, please. 23 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Yes, sir. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you swear to tell 25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 0089 1 truth, so help you God? 2 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: I do. 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Judicial Merit 4 Selection commission has thoroughly investigated 5 your qualifications for the bench. 6 Our inquiries has focused on nine 7 evaluative criteria and has included a survey of 8 the bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 9 application material, verification of your 10 compliance to state ethics laws, a search of 11 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a 12 study of previous screens, and a check for economic 13 conflicts of interests. 14 We have received no affidavits filed 15 in opposition to your election. No witnesses are 16 present to testify. 17 I'd ask you if you have any brief 18 opening statements you want to make. It's purely 19 optional. The procedure is I will turn you over to 20 counsel. Counsel will ask you a series of 21 questions. At the conclusion of that, any member 22 of the commission may have a question, then we'll 23 wrap up the hearing. 24 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Thank you so much, 25 Senator. I just -- I know you all are running 0090 1 behind, and the only thing that I would say is -- 2 just to take a moment to thank each and every one 3 for the time that you're spending. It's important. 4 I appreciate that. I appreciate the time that 5 you're giving to it. 6 I appreciate, you know, all the 7 efforts on behalf of Ms. Wells who has been most 8 helpful. I appreciate all your time. I think our 9 system is such a good system particularly with -- 10 compared to other ways of electing judges around 11 the country. I just want to thank you for all the 12 time that you give to it. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you so much. 14 Thank you for your comments about our staff. With 15 that, I turn you over to counsel for questioning. 16 MS. WELLS: Thank you. 17 Mr. Chairman and members of the 18 commission, I have a few procedural matters I need 19 to take care of. 20 BY MS. WELLS: 21 Q. Judge Goodstein, you have before you 22 your personal data questionnaire and the amendments 23 that you submitted as part of your application. 24 Are there any additional amendments 25 you would like to make at this time to your PDQ? 0091 1 A. I actually do not have it before me, 2 but I don't think I need it. And the reason for 3 that is because Judge Fuge is on the schedule 4 before me, and I dont' know that I need it. 5 Q. Okay. We've got to hand it as 6 exhibit -- 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. -- for the record. So let me -- 9 Jane's going to go down there -- Ms. Shuler's going 10 to go down there and correct it. 11 A. I just turned it back over since -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Since that. And I forward it earlier 14 by e-mail. 15 Q. That would be your amendment and 16 your -- 17 A. Exactly. 18 Q. Okay. So you have no additional 19 amendments besides that. 20 MS. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, I would ask 21 that Judge Goodstein's personal data questionnaire 22 and amendment be entered as an exhibit into the 23 hearing record. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 25 ordered. 0092 1 (EXH. 2 was enter into the record.) 2 BY MS. WELLS: 3 Q. Judge Goodstein, you also have before 4 you the sworn statement and amendment you provided 5 with detailed answers to over 30 questions 6 regarding judicial conduct, statutory 7 qualifications, office administration, and 8 temperament. 9 Are there any additional amendments 10 you would like to make at this time to your sworn 11 statement? 12 A. No. 13 MS. WELLS: At this time, 14 Mr. Chairman, I would ask that Judge Goodstein's 15 sworn statement and amendment be entered as an 16 exhibit into the hearing record. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 18 ordered. 19 MS. WELLS: I note for the record that 20 based on the testimony contained in Judge 21 Goodstein's PDQ, which has been included in the 22 record with her consent, Judge Goodstein meets the 23 statutory requirements for this position regarding 24 age, residence, and years of practice. 25 BY MS. WELLS: 0093 1 Q. Judge Goodstein, would you tell the 2 commission why you want to continue serving as a 3 Circuit Court judge? 4 A. It is my sincere hope that I continue 5 to offer something to our state. The work is so 6 interesting, it's a marvelous opportunity to feel 7 that you connect with so many different kinds of 8 people within our community at large. 9 And it is my sincere hope that I yet 10 am able to make real contributions, and I hope that 11 I can continue to do that in the future. 12 Q. Thank you, Judge Goodstein. 13 Although you address this in your 14 sworn statement, would you please explain to the 15 members of the commission what you think is the 16 appropriate demeanor for a Circuit Court judge. 17 A. First and foremost, I think that you 18 have got to be courteous to everyone that comes 19 before you, no matter who that might be. 20 Secondly, I think that you must be 21 patient and you have to listen. I think that for 22 our system of justice to work and work 23 appropriately, you've got to be willing to listen. 24 Perhaps above all else, people want to be heard. 25 And I think that anger, while anger 0094 1 certainly has no place in the courtroom. And the 2 rule when we work with younger judges, it's to 3 always tell them if you feel yourself getting 4 angry, take a break, leave the bench, because you 5 cannot be angry and think at the same time. Anger 6 really doesn't have a place. 7 Firmness does sometime, because you 8 are responsible for getting all of these folks 9 through oftentimes very difficult, difficult 10 proceedings. 11 So while sometimes you may have to 12 seek the formality of the proceedings and perhaps 13 become more firm, there's no place for rudeness and 14 there's certainly no place for rudeness -- comes to 15 mind and anger, shortness and the like. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 Judge Goodstein, in the 2008 judicial 18 evaluation survey of the South Carolina Bar which 19 was taken in 2007 while you were running for two 20 different Supreme Court seats at different times, 21 there were over 350 responses received about you. 22 Although the majority of the persons 23 surveyed found you excellent or above average in 24 all the categories, there were three categories 25 where a large number of responders found you 0095 1 deficient. 2 In the survey, 18 percent thought you 3 favored plaintiffs in civil cases, 24 percent 4 thought you were influenced by the identities of 5 the lawyers, and 15 percent thought you were 6 influenced by the identify of the litigants. 7 How do you respond to this? 8 A. In general -- in general, when you 9 receive surveys such as that and you're grateful 10 that 80 percent of the folks to 85 percent of the 11 folks think you're doing well, so you're grateful 12 to those people. 13 And then I think -- I certainly think, 14 as I reflected on that, I was saddened by it. And 15 while you think that you are being patient and kind 16 and having the appropriate demeanor every day, and 17 while you intend that every day -- and I certainly 18 intend that every day -- you've got to be mindful 19 that there are obviously times when there are those 20 that don't feel that way. 21 Now, was it because they received a 22 result that they did not like? Perhaps. But 23 what's important, I think for me to reflect on, is 24 that there are those numbers of people that were 25 concerned and were concerned enough to express 0096 1 that. 2 So you go back to go, you are 3 circumspect about your conduct, you go back and 4 reflect on what it is that you are doing, like 5 renew your energies to be sure that you are doing 6 the things that you intend to do, which is to 7 listen and to be patient and to give people the 8 very best of what you have to offer. 9 And I think that hopefully, hopefully 10 that has been helpful because I think, at least as 11 I've been able to learn from this process, this 12 go-round there have been no responses -- no 13 negative responses which is a good thing. No 14 positive responses either, so maybe that's not such 15 a good thing. 16 But I think that you go back to go and 17 you just -- you recommit, you rethink, and you 18 re-energize. 19 Q. Also, during 2008 there was a 20 newspaper article about a case involving the 21 Catholic Diocese and victims of sexual abuse, where 22 attorneys accused you of colluding with the class 23 action counsel and asked you to recuse yourself. 24 These attorneys were representing 25 alleged victims who disagreed with the proposed 0097 1 settlement between the plaintiff and Catholic 2 Diocese. 3 Without divulging any confidential or 4 privileged information, would you please tell the 5 commission about how you handled this matter? 6 A. Certainly, certainly. You know, 7 that's one of those pieces of litigation that takes 8 on a life of its own. 9 Initially I would say that I didn't 10 collude with anyone. That particular piece of 11 litigation was as hotly contested as any piece of 12 litigation I've been involved with since -- both 13 I've been on the bench and that I recall having 14 been a practicing lawyer. 15 So it was hotly contested, that 16 particular litigation. The concern was expressed 17 by counsel who came in and objected to the class. 18 I still believe that the class settlement was 19 appropriate. 20 And as I tried to understand the 21 motivation expressed by the lawyers that in fact 22 spoke to the newspapers, what perhaps was 23 misconstrued was that during the course of their 24 objection, these lawyers' objection -- and you must 25 understand that the objection was on behalf of 0098 1 unnamed individuals, they were John Doe and Jane 2 Doe -- there was a concern which was raised to me 3 as the trial judge that this particular lawyer, 4 while he may have raised an objection, represented 5 no people in reality. 6 I thought about that, I considered 7 that, and then believed that that raised an ethical 8 issue that I genuinely needed to respond to, to be 9 sure that I was receiving the information that was 10 appropriate and that I was looking at the 11 information that I needed to look at and looking at 12 that correctly. 13 I issued an order, I gave the 14 lawyers -- all of the lawyers notice in the form of 15 an order that said that I intended to retain an 16 expert in the field of ethics to be sure that I was 17 addressing those concerns appropriately. 18 I gave the lawyers ten days to object. 19 There was no objection. And I retained the expert 20 to help me. We looked at information that I 21 believe was appropriate. 22 And upon that review, I was satisfied 23 that while there were legitimate questions, that I 24 believe that the lawyer could sustain a challenge 25 to whether or not that lawyer actually represented 0099 1 at least one person. And that concluded the 2 inquiry. 3 While the ethical expert raised 4 another issue, an additional issue, I stopped the 5 inquiry at that point because that was not my 6 original purpose of retaining the expert, and that 7 was the end of that inquiry. And I issued an order 8 and things moved on. 9 I think that -- I think that the 10 lawyer perhaps was offended by that inquiry. And 11 also the lawyers themselves, I believe, have had a 12 fair amount of conflict. And I think that there's 13 been an awful lot of upset with regard to counsel 14 in that case. 15 But that would be, as I would try to 16 explain, why there would be so much upset. I think 17 perhaps that go to the source. 18 Q. Judge Goodstein, do you have 19 suggestions you would offer for improving the 20 backlog of cases on the docket in Circuit Court for 21 both common pleas and general sessions? 22 A. We have implemented, as I'm sure all 23 of you know, the case management system. And it's 24 now implemented over the majority, not all of the 25 counties, but the majority of the counties. 0100 1 That has helped us in Dorchester 2 County and Orangeburg County and now Calhoun County 3 to be able to both keep up with our roster and -- 4 both civilly and criminally -- and to have a pretty 5 good handle on the cases that are there to be 6 resolved. 7 I think that has been a great help to 8 all of us. I know that continually there are both 9 court administration and the trial bench, as well 10 as the Solicitors Association, are all trying to 11 come up with ways that we can better manage our 12 criminal docket, and I think that that's a place 13 that we can certainly work towards that. 14 I think that -- and I know that in our 15 counties we have tried to implement not only the 16 first and second appearances to help with the 17 backlog, to keep lawyers and the court in contact 18 with each other with regards to not the cases that 19 are being tried, but the ones that are to come that 20 are farther down the roster, and that's certainly 21 going to help. But I don't think we're there yet. 22 I think that there needs to be 23 probably more implementation of a pretrial 24 procedure to move cases along. I think we can make 25 perhaps even better use of the transfer roster and 0101 1 more. But I think probably the most efficacious 2 manner of improving our criminal roster is probably 3 going to be just the pretrial work that we can do 4 and we have certainly trying to do in our circuit. 5 Q. Just a few housekeeping issues, Judge 6 Goodstein. 7 Have you sought or received the pledge 8 of any legislator prior to this date? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. Have you sought or have you been 11 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 12 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 13 A. I have not. 14 Q. Have you asked any other third parties 15 to contact members of the general assembly on your 16 behalf? 17 A. I have not. 18 Q. Have you contacted any members of this 19 commission? 20 A. I have not. 21 Q. Do you understand you're prohibited 22 from seeking a pledge or commitment until 48 hours 23 after the formal release of the commission's 24 report? 25 A. I do. 0102 1 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 2 guidelines on pledging? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you aware that the penalty for 5 violating pledging rules is a misdemeanor and, upon 6 conviction, a violator must be fined not more than 7 $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 90 days? 8 A. Yes, I understand that. 9 MS. WELLS: Mr. Chairman and members 10 of the commission, I would note that the Lowcountry 11 Citizens Committee reported that Judge Goodstein 12 was well qualified for each of the nine evaluative 13 criteria: Constitutional qualifications, ethical 14 fitness, professional and academic ability, 15 character, reputation, physical health, mental 16 stability, experience, and judicial temperament. 17 I would also note for the record that 18 any concerns raised during investigation of Judge 19 Goodstein were incorporated in the questioning I 20 had of her today. 21 And I have no further questions, 22 Mr. Chairman. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm glad you brought 24 that up, because what she said about the positive 25 comments factor that the Lowcountry Citizens 0103 1 Committee gave you, well qualified, not just 2 qualified. That group very -- does a thorough job. 3 That's a real tribute. 4 Let me see if there are any questions. 5 Any questions? 6 SEN. KNOTTS: I have a comment. 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Senator from Lexington. 8 SEN. KNOTTS: Judge, I want to tell 9 you, as you well know, I've observed you in your 10 courtroom proceedings on numerous occasions. And I 11 find you to be a fine example of the judicial 12 system in South Carolina. And I -- you're always 13 nice, you're always courteous. I've never seen you 14 robotic. 15 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Thank you so much, 16 Senator. 17 SEN. KNOTTS: I've been knowing you 18 since, good gosh, the '70s. You're welcome in 19 Lexington County anytime. 20 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: What a wonderful 21 county and a gorgeous courthouse there is there. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Representative Mack. 23 REP. MACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 24 I just wanted to echo what the Senator 25 said. I've known Judge Goodstein for some time and 0104 1 Mr. Arnold Goldstein. And it just seems that in 2 Charleston you always get the toughest cases. But 3 I think you do a tremendous job and you're a credit 4 to the bench. 5 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Oh, thank you so 6 much. Thank you, Representative Mack. 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments or 8 questions? 9 Being none, this concludes portion of 10 our screening process. 11 As you know, the record will remain 12 open until the report is published and you could be 13 called back at such time as the need arises. It's 14 not an indication of anything outstanding, nothing 15 that I know of in fact. 16 I remind you of the 48-hour rule and 17 ask you to be mindful of that. So mindful that if, 18 in fact, anyone inquires of you about whether they 19 may or not advocate for you until the Committee 20 makes a positive report, that you remind them of 21 the 48-hour rule for us, we'd appreciate it. 22 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Thank you. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, we thank you 24 for offering, and we thank you for your service to 25 the people of South Carolina. 0105 1 JUDGE GOODSTEIN: Thank you so much. 2 And Ms. Treywick's father was a good friend of my 3 older brother. She's not supposed to even be in 4 this world. She makes me feel old. Thank you all 5 so much. 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Have a nice 7 day, both of you. Bye-bye now. 8 (Judge Goldstein exited the room.) 9 (Off-the-record discussion.) 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go back on the 11 record at this point. Are you ready? I don't want 12 to rush you. Stand at ease momentarily. 13 (Off-the-record discussion.) 14 (Judge Fuge entered the room.) 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go 16 back on the record at this point. 17 And we have before us the Honorable 18 Peter L. Fuge who is offering again for the Family 19 Court, 14th Circuit, Seat Number 2. 20 If you would raise your right hand 21 please, sir. 22 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 23 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 24 God? 25 JUDGE FUGE: Yes, sir. 0106 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. The 2 Judicial Merit Selection commission has thoroughly 3 investigated your qualifications for the bench. 4 Our inquiries focused on the nine evaluative 5 criteria and has included a survey of the bench and 6 the bar, a thorough study of your application 7 materials, a verification of your compliance with 8 state ethics laws, a search of newspaper articles 9 in which your name appears, a study of your 10 previous screenings, and a check for economic 11 conflicts of interest. 12 We have received one affidavit filed 13 in opposition to your election. One witness is 14 present to testify, and that is Mr. Matthew Alan 15 Gregory. 16 Mr. Gregory, that is you back there, 17 correct, sir? 18 MR. GREGORY: Yes, sir. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. And before 20 I get to him, I would ask if you have any brief 21 opening statement you may wish to give. It's 22 purely optional. 23 The procedure is this: We will turn 24 you over to counsel. Counsel will ask you a series 25 of questions. And if any commissioner has any 0107 1 questions, they obviously will follow up. 2 We will then hear from the complainant 3 and will give you an opportunity then to respond. 4 And all of that is subject, of course, to questions 5 from the commission. 6 Before I proceed any further, I see 7 you have a guest. And so I'll stop and ask you if 8 you'd like to introduce whoever it is that's with 9 you. 10 JUDGE FUGE: Yes, sir. I'd like to 11 introduce my long-suffering wife of 39 years. She 12 came up with me and my famous last words were, I 13 said, Honey, why don't we ride up together and talk 14 and spend some time together, it starts at 12:10. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on house time 16 today. 17 JUDGE FUGE: But I'll sit down and 18 listen if someone's got a complaint. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, let 20 me -- Mr. Gregory, I see you have some folks with 21 you. If you want to introduce them, I would allow 22 you to do so at this point. 23 MR. GREGORY: This is Shelly and she 24 is with me. She's a family friend. And my son is 25 here with the Cub Scouts, going for a Cub Scouts 0108 1 badge. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I'm glad to 3 have you with us. All right. With that, I'll turn 4 you over to counsel. 5 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman and members 6 of the commission, I have a few procedural matters 7 to take care of regarding Judge Fuge. 8 BY MR. GENTRY: 9 Q. Judge Fuge, you have before you the 10 personal data questionnaire you've submitted as 11 part of your application. 12 Are there any additional amendments 13 you'd like to make at this time to your PDQ? 14 A. No, sir. 15 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to 16 ask that Judge Fuge's personal data questionnaire 17 be entered as an exhibit into the hearing record. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 19 ordered. 20 (EXH. 3 was enter into the record.) 21 BY MR. GENTRY: 22 Q. Judge Fuge, you also have before you 23 the sworn statement you provided with detailed 24 answers to over 30 questions regarding judicial 25 conduct, statutory qualifications, office 0109 1 administration, and temperament. 2 Are there any additional amendments 3 you'd like to make at this time to your sworn 4 statement? 5 A. No, sir. 6 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask 7 that Judge Fuge's sworn statement be entered into 8 the hearing record. 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 10 ordered. 11 MR. GENTRY: One final procedural 12 matter. I note for the record that based on the 13 testimony contained in the candidate's PDQ, which 14 has been included in the record, with the 15 candidate's consent, Judge Fuge meets the statutory 16 requirements for this position regarding age, 17 residence, and years of practice. 18 BY MR. GENTRY: 19 Q. Judge Fuge, why do you want to 20 continue to serve as a Family Court? 21 A. It is an absolute honor to be able to 22 serve our state. I look at you working here. 23 You're working six to seven or nine to five, and 24 it's obvious, and I know you receive the same 25 pleasure. I just consider it an honor and a 0110 1 privilege. 2 Q. Although you address this in your 3 sworn affidavit, could you please explain to the 4 members of the commission what you think is the 5 appropriate demeanor for a judge? 6 A. Well, the canons of ethics 7 specifically set forth the demeanor that they 8 expect of us. We're supposed to be courteous. 9 We're not supposed to be people that you can just 10 walk all over. 11 We're supposed to uphold the integrity 12 of the court system, but always treat people fairly 13 and courteously and try to be as fair as we 14 possibly can. I believe that's the right way to 15 treat people. 16 Q. Please explain to the pro se litigant 17 that come before you. 18 A. Well, our chief justice has -- I'm 19 lucky because when this started -- that is when we 20 got involved and we changed the name from pro se to 21 SRLs, or generally they're called 22 self-representative litigants now. 23 And she's explained to us our 24 responsibilities in that regard. We have to be 25 fair, we've to -- we can't show favoritism for 0111 1 either one. So if you have one person that's 2 represented by counsel and one pro se litigant, one 3 SRL, it's difficult, it's very difficult because 4 you can't -- you want to help them, you want to 5 move the case forward, but you can't show any 6 favoritism. 7 On the other side of the coin, if you 8 have two pro se litigants and particularly if the 9 issue is very simply straightforward, I'm generally 10 known as a softy in that regard. I'll get a person 11 that -- for example, I'll have a person come in and 12 they might have a difficult time with service of 13 process. 14 So I will intimate to them what they 15 should do at the clerk's office to get the proper 16 service, and then I have a very, very good clerk of 17 the court that will assist them. 18 Second problem is usually their 19 orders, you know, it's just -- they hand-draft 20 their orders, they'll scribble all over them. I 21 have my secretary in Beaufort now when I'm in 22 Beaufort, which of course is now quite a bit 23 because of the economy. 24 I just print out an order. I try to 25 help them out as much as I can. I try to -- it's 0112 1 their day in court. And usually it's such a basal 2 thing. Usually it's somebody who's been separated 3 for seven or eight years, they want to get 4 divorced. It's usually not an issue concerning 5 property. There's already -- in those type of 6 cases too, you usually have a DSS order for support 7 if there's children. So that's already been 8 litigated. 9 I would say that my philosophy is I 10 help as much as I can without showing any 11 favoritism or bias towards one or the other. I try 12 to move the case along because we're seeing more 13 and more of them. It's our responsibility. 14 Q. What suggestion, if any, would you 15 offer for improving the backlog of cases in Family 16 Court? 17 A. I thought about that. I know you're 18 busy tonight, and that would take a couple of hours 19 to answer that. 20 Two things, I think. If we had 21 someone that could screen, someone with a little 22 bit more experience could screen some of these 23 cases, you'll get lot of cases that really maybe 24 could have been resolved through -- or some of the 25 issues in cases could have been resolved with some 0113 1 sort of administrative assistant talking to them 2 and seeing exactly what they want. Sometimes 3 people don't really know what they want. 4 You'll get a case, for example, 5 somebody might want custody. The mother's had 6 custody, she's been the primary caretaker, the 7 father has not been around that much, and he comes 8 in and he wants joint custody. Well, that means 9 guardianships. You know, that means you have to -- 10 there's a mandatory -- you have to send them to 11 mediation. 12 And so sometimes I think if you could 13 just kind of have someone in the system, not a 14 judge, but someone to just sort of work with those 15 type of issues to kind of clean them up, I think we 16 could take 5 to 10 percent off the docket. I 17 really believe that. 18 Also -- well, I guess that there's one 19 other issue that is inherent to our system and it's 20 not going to change and that is because we rotate 21 judges, sometimes it's difficult to take -- you'll 22 get a difficult case, you know, a real difficult 23 case like in Circuit Court, and sometimes it should 24 just be assigned to a judge. 25 Let that judge move it along, because 0114 1 I have found in my short tenure now, it's less than 2 two years, but I found that usually there's someone 3 that wants to try the case and there's somebody 4 that doesn't want to try the case. Somebody's 5 self-interest is served by maybe, you know, they 6 have a really good support order or -- you know, I 7 don't know and for whatever reason or the lawyer's 8 not ready or whatever. 9 And sometimes I think a more 10 consistent -- you know, when you go to one judge to 11 the next judge to the next judge, it makes it 12 difficult to have a consistency. And I believe if 13 you could get one judge assigned to a difficult 14 case, you can move it along. And those are the 15 cases that tie up the docket. 16 And I say it because oftentimes after 17 you worked a long time with a case like that, 18 you'll see that, you know, two good lawyers on the 19 courthouse steps will resolve the case. And then 20 you're looking at, okay, we've got the backup B 21 case coming in or maybe there wasn't a backup B 22 case, and you might waste a day of court. 23 So those are just two thoughts that I 24 have. And I don't want to tie up your time. I 25 know that you're working late, but I thought about 0115 1 that. 2 Q. What would you like for your legacy to 3 be as a Family Court judge? 4 A. Just a good man, be known as a good 5 man. 6 Q. Thank you, Judge Fuge. 7 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman, unless the 8 members of the commission have any questions at 9 this time, I'd like for the commission to call 10 Matthew Gregory, Sr., forward to testify. 11 Mr. Gregory filed an affidavit in opposition to 12 Judge Fuge's reelection. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Any member 14 of the commission have any question of the Judge at 15 this point? 16 JUDGE FUGE: Oh, I apologize. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: That's okay. Just stay 18 right there. That's fine. 19 All right. Mr. Gregory, if you'd come 20 forward, please, sir. If you would raise your 21 right hand, please. 22 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 23 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 24 God? 25 MR. GREGORY: I do. 0116 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Please 2 answer counsel's questions. 3 BY MR. GENTRY: 4 Q. Mr. Gregory, please state your full 5 name and address for the record. 6 A. My name is Matthew Alan Gregory, Sr., 7 and I live at 44 Rice Point Circle in Beaufort, 8 South Carolina. 9 Q. Mr. Gregory, you filed an affidavit in 10 opposition to Judge Fuge's reelection; is that 11 correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. And the nature of your complaint 14 arises out of a probable cause hearing that took 15 place on September 15th, 2009 in which you were a 16 witness and Judge Fuge presided? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. And the hearing was held to determine 19 if probable cause existed to place two children in 20 emergency protective custody pursuant to an 21 ex parte order requested by the Department of 22 Social Services; is that correct? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. You were not a party to the hearing, 25 but instead you were called as witness by the 0117 1 defendant who represented herself at the hearing; 2 is that correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. She did not have an attorney at the 5 hearing? 6 A. No, sir. No time to obtain an 7 attorney. 8 Q. And you're not an attorney? 9 A. I am not. 10 Q. You allege that at this hearing Judge 11 Fuge acted improperly by hurrying the proceedings, 12 allowing DSS to provide testimony, not allowing the 13 defendant to provide certain testimony, threatening 14 the defendant with jail time if she testified, 15 threatening another person in the courtroom with 16 jail time for contempt, and generally acting in a 17 rude and arrogant manner; is that correct? 18 A. Not exactly my words, but yes. 19 Q. If you would, please, briefly explain 20 to the commission the nature of these allegations 21 as they specifically relate to Judge Fuge's 22 character, competency or ethics. 23 A. Certainly. At the time when we 24 arrived at the courtroom, we had family support 25 with us including my parents and the defendant's 0118 1 parents. 2 And when we walked into the courtroom, 3 we had a certain amount of confidence that this 4 case would be resolved very quickly because there 5 was no evidence at all being submitted by the 6 Department of Social services at the time other 7 than circumstantial evidence and hearsay. 8 The caseworker that was presenting the 9 case was well known for pushing things far beyond 10 their actual, I guess you could say, merit for 11 being pushed. 12 And so we knew that the evidence that 13 we had on our side would show very clearly, without 14 any question, or we believed that it would show 15 clearly without any question, that the charges 16 being raised by DSS were unsubstantiated and would 17 be dropped. 18 And so we were there as a family in 19 order to say that we were working together to take 20 care of the situation. At the moment of walking 21 through the doors, we began to realize that that 22 was not at all going to be the case. 23 We were pushed to our seats. I was 24 walking alongside the defendant, because we were 25 only provided with approximately hours between the 0119 1 time the children were removed from the home. And 2 was our first notice that anything was going on 3 until the time of the actual hearing for probable 4 cause. 5 We had no time to secure an attorney. 6 So I was going to act as counsel to the defendant, 7 not as an attorney, but as someone who had been in 8 Family Court before and was not afraid and knew how 9 to carry themselves in order to tell her what she 10 should do as far as submitting testimony. 11 I was not allowed to sit with her and 12 help her. However, I was separated from her. I 13 was put back several rows behind her so she 14 couldn't see me. And following that point, she 15 really felt isolated. She was placed in a 16 situation where she had never been before. 17 She was a young woman and without an 18 attorney or anyone else beside her in order to 19 assist her with her testimony. She was then left 20 entirely upon the advice of Judge Fuge and against 21 DSS who was in the courtroom on a regular basis and 22 is very familiar with the proceedings of how things 23 go, and then totally unaware of the situation, she 24 was required to, I guess, defend herself against 25 these accusations. 0120 1 Now, there were many things that, you 2 know, I personally would have known to or an 3 attorney would have known to do that we would have 4 done but could not do because we were separated. 5 But more specific to Judge Fuge, Judge 6 Fuge was hurried. He, you know, made no -- I guess 7 no attempt to disguise that fact and was, you know, 8 Come in, sit down, let's get this over with, kind 9 of situation. And I'm not quoting, I'm 10 paraphrasing because I do not have the transcripts 11 with me. 12 And so we were sat down quickly, DSS 13 was brought in and they testified. There was no 14 evidence submitted other than a charge sheet from 15 the hospital which was, you know, basically 16 containing no actual evidence of the charges that 17 were submitted by DSS. 18 And so without someone there beside 19 the defendant that could, you know, present any 20 evidence on our side -- or on her side -- she was 21 effectively under the Judge's care and protection 22 as a citizen that was completely unfamiliar with 23 the situation to find out the truth behind the 24 situation and to actually find out what was going. 25 But it wasn't that way at all. I 0121 1 mean, it was almost as though we were just there to 2 receive the decision of the court which had already 3 been made ahead of time before appearing before the 4 court. 5 And I have been in several Family 6 Court situations. And to this day, I have never 7 been in a courtroom where I felt more like the 8 decision has already been made before walking 9 through the door, and like anything that we said 10 would be completely disregarded, as I was in that 11 courtroom. 12 The situation that happened with my 13 own father being threatened with jail time for 14 contempt of court happened through frustration, 15 where my father had to sit there and hear hearsay 16 accusations being passed from DSS to the Judge and 17 the Judge repeating those things as though they 18 were fact and yet nothing being allowed to be 19 presented in counter-argument. 20 And I'm sure that that would have been 21 different had there been an attorney sitting there 22 that could have presented these things or at least 23 encouraged her or shown her what to do. But not 24 being allowed that time and not being allowed, you 25 know, someone else there beside her to counsel her, 0122 1 we were left in a situation where the only person 2 there that could try the case and actually try to 3 find out the truth of the situation was Judge Fuge. 4 And I did not feel like the Judge was 5 interested actually in doing that. I felt like he 6 wanted to get it done with and get us out of there. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the statutes and 8 court rules pertaining to witnesses that are 9 allowed to testify at a probable cause hearing for 10 emergency protective custody? 11 A. No, I'm not. 12 Q. Okay. Did the judge ever recommend at 13 any time that the defendant actually obtain 14 counsel? 15 A. Yes, he did. However, as I said, 16 there was no way to do before this. And we were 17 trying to keep the mother from being separated from 18 her children which were removed the day before. 19 And so our only choice was to go before the judge 20 on our own merits and discuss the case with the 21 evidence we had on hand. 22 Q. You also mentioned that Judge Fuge 23 threatened the defendant with jail time if she 24 testified. Was he threatening or was he doing more 25 of a warning to the defendant about 0123 1 self-incrimination? 2 A. I believe that Judge Fuge honestly did 3 not want her to wind up in jail on criminal charges 4 because of her basically going in front of the 5 court and saying something that would effectively 6 incriminated her. 7 However, the fact that I'm a witness 8 and not the actual defendant and having known the 9 person before the hearing, I know that that would 10 not have happened, and that she wanted to present 11 evidence that would have shown otherwise. 12 However, being alone and in the way 13 that it was presented, it terrified her. It made 14 her afraid to present any evidence on her own 15 defense. 16 Q. You also mentioned that you believe 17 the Judge threatened your father with contempt 18 during the hearing. Did your father actually 19 interrupt the proceedings? 20 A. He spoke out of turn, yes, he did. 21 Q. Are there any other specific facts 22 that you feel are pertinent to the screening of 23 Judge Fuge? 24 A. Yes, there is. The most important 25 fact I think is that was a glaring lack of 0124 1 knowledge of medical procedures and medical 2 documentation when the information was brought by 3 DSS. 4 There is a very specific chart sheet 5 that was presented and it had information written 6 on it in a way that was inconsistent with the MCAT, 7 the medical standards for how notes should be taken 8 by doctors. This sheet is written either by a 9 charge nurse or a physician at the hospital, not by 10 attorney, not by anyone related with the court. 11 And no one, not DSS and not Judge Fuge understood 12 how it was written on the notation letter. 13 And yet this was the total evidence 14 used against her. In the case of Family Court 15 where people are looking at losing their families, 16 you have to have someone in that courtroom who 17 understands these things. It is often medical 18 opinions or medical notes that are used as 19 evidence. 20 And when that was brought up, my own 21 lack of experience was -- my own lack of experience 22 was sufficient to throw out my testimony. However, 23 the obvious lack of experience everyone else there 24 was not brought up at all in using this as evidence 25 to rule against the mother. 0125 1 And I feel like I was almost put into 2 a position of being, I don't know, looked at as, I 3 guess, incompetent to bring up even the question of 4 whether or not that stuff was being properly 5 examined merely because I'm not a physician. 6 However, we were in a situation where it was an 7 emergency hearing. 8 Q. And this was in your role as being 9 called by the defendant as a witness? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Okay. And you're not an expert 12 witness in any medical terminology or anything 13 having to do with drugs and children; is that 14 correct? 15 A. I'm not an expert witness. And all I 16 could do is do my own research in the short time 17 period that we had. 18 Q. Okay. 19 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Chairman, at this 20 time, unless any members of the commission have any 21 questions, I'd like your permission to call Judge 22 Fuge forward to respond to the affidavit and 23 testimony. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Let me see 25 if any member of the commission has any questions 0126 1 of the witness. Having none, thank you, sir, you 2 can take a seat. 3 Judge Fuge, if you'd come forward, 4 please, sir. 5 JUDGE FUGE: I'll be as brief as 6 possible. This is a probable cause hearing. What 7 happened there was a little baby that was born, and 8 the medical notes indicated that it had all sorts 9 of drugs in its system. I think it was -- I don't 10 want to take up all your time, but we can look 11 through it. I don't want to take up all your time. 12 It was just an unbelievable number of drugs in the 13 child's system. 14 As a matter of fact, we will go ahead 15 and pull that out. I do have a copy of the 16 transcript if you'd like to read it. 17 But the caseworker essentially said 18 that she went to see the mother in August or 19 thereabouts and was very concerned. And the mother 20 admitted to being -- using cocaine, that she was 21 enrolled in a methadone clinic in, I think, 22 Richland. 23 And so the baby was born, I think, 24 around Sep- -- and then they, you know, they had 25 gone back and visited -- come back and visited. 0127 1 The baby, I think, was born September 2nd, if I'm 2 right. And the baby went through withdrawal and 3 seizures, and the baby was medevaced to the Medical 4 University of South Carolina. 5 And it -- of course, you don't stay at 6 the medical university neonatal care unit in 7 Charleston unless there's a problem. They just 8 don't keep you there because you're well. 9 The child tested positive -- let me -- 10 if you would bear with me, I guess I should have 11 pulled the page, but it was an astronomical amount 12 of drugs. 13 MR. SELLERS: Page 14, I think, Judge 14 Fuge. 15 JUDGE FUGE: Yes, sir. 16 And I was very concerned about the 17 welfare of the child. So it was -- let's see, 18 page 14. 19 PROF. FREEMAN: Line 8, starting on 20 line 8. 21 JUDGE FUGE: Benzo's, marijuana, 22 barbiturates, methadone, amphetamines, cocaine, and 23 opiates. Anyway, the child was in the medical 24 university. The child then came back from the 25 medical university after about a week and stayed in 0128 1 Beaufort Memorial Hospital. 2 And those indicated they had tested 3 her and I think it was -- it's in the transcript, 4 and we can make it part of the record -- two or 5 three drugs, lorazepam, cocaine, and something 6 else, plus the woman during her -- I had said to 7 her, I said, Now, are you sure you want to testify 8 into the transcript because, you know, it's a 9 crime, you could be charged with a crime, and I'm 10 going to refer this case to the solicitor's office. 11 And I always do in these cases. 12 And I said, If you want to testify, 13 you can testify but, you know, and she decided she 14 didn't want to testify. Now, at these probable 15 cause hearings, as you know, you take a child -- by 16 the way, the child was still in the hospital when 17 we had the hearing. It didn't get released until I 18 think the next day. 19 So armed and equipped with that 20 information, I was concerned about the best 21 interest of the child. And I ordered that the 22 child and of course the other little boys, 23 two-year-old boy, three-year-old, I dont' know -- 24 the Jacinsky (phonetic) boy. So she's watching his 25 children, that's his testimony, that she watches 0129 1 his four children. 2 So I said I thought that the best 3 thing to do is to put the child -- the child be 4 placed in foster care, and I ordered that the 5 mother undergo a hair sample. She went to 6 Charles -- she went somewhere, wherever DSS has a 7 contract. I believe it's Savannah. Or maybe they 8 take it in Beaufort, send it to Savannah. 9 And armed with and equipped with the 10 knowledge that she's a methadone clinic person, she 11 came back completely negative. 12 I then sent -- again, I mean I was 13 born at night, I mean. So I sent her to this other 14 doctor in Charleston, Dr. Bennett, who I know draws 15 the stuff there. I'm not here to say that he's 16 greatest thing, but I know he draws the hair there 17 and he's done it three years, and I was concerned 18 about possible chain of custody. So he did that 19 and I sent it to Mr. Gentry. 20 He sent back a report that said she 21 did test positive for methadone with him and said 22 that she had changed her hair color. I mean, said 23 she had done something to her hair and that she had 24 shaved her entire body. 25 Now, I'm just doing what I can to 0130 1 protect these little kids from having problems. 2 There's a -- I said -- I told him in the transcript 3 there's going to be a merit hearing, you can come. 4 I pointed, I said you go down the hall 5 and we'll appoint you a lawyer, if you qualify. If 6 you don't, you have to hire one. I advised her, if 7 you want to testify, you could, what you say could 8 be used against you. 9 And the grandfather stood up, well, we 10 don't know who the father is. This gentleman is 11 the putative brother-in-law. The father of this 12 child is in prison in North Carolina. And so I 13 ordered, you know, a DNA test to find out who the 14 father is. And I just did the best I could to 15 protect this child. And they're going to have a 16 hearing on the merits. We'll see what happen. 17 Since all of this, I think I got it on 18 a Monday. There was a hearing scheduled on the 19 merits Monday or Tuesday, a week ago. And I 20 decided to recuse myself. So I didn't even go into 21 the courtroom. I didn't want -- they believe I 22 have a bias or prejudice against them. 23 So I decided and I drafted an order 24 myself and submitted it out there with my bailiff 25 that just said that I'm going -- in light of the 0131 1 conduct of the parties, I'm going to recuse myself 2 from hearing any further matter and anything else 3 in this matter. 4 So that's it. So if I'm wrong, I 5 apologize for it. I'm just trying to do the right 6 thing. 7 BY MR. GENTRY: 8 Q. Judge Fuge, do you believe that you 9 hurried the proceedings as alleged by Mr. Gregory? 10 A. Read the transcript. I promise you -- 11 that is just -- y'all have got so many things -- 12 they are people out there. I did not hurry the 13 hearing. 14 As a matter of fact, you know, I 15 learned that whenever you have a situation like 16 this, it's good to take a break. The record 17 reflects that I took it. I waited -- I had the 18 father taken -- well, the putative grandfather 19 taken out of the courtroom. 20 And I brought him back in and I said, 21 Now, sir, do you realize what you've done? We 22 can't have this, we just can't have people 23 screaming out in court like this. He was 24 screaming. That's in the transcript. And, you 25 know, okay, and he's sorry. And I said, Okay, you 0132 1 know, I'm going to think about this. 2 So I went back to my office, sat down 3 for five minutes, came back, and I just said, you 4 know, I believe I'm just going to warn you. I'm 5 not going to fine you or put you in jail or 6 anything like that. But please don't ever come to 7 my courtroom again screaming and yelling like that. 8 You can't just come in, like right now if you had 9 somebody screaming at you, you just can't have it. 10 So that's it. 11 Q. Do you believe that you made a 12 decision before hearing the testimony and evidence 13 presented? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Do you believe you were rude or 16 arrogant towards the defendant Mr. Gregory or any 17 of the other persons in the proceeding? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Is there any other information you'd 20 like to provide to the commission as it pertains to 21 Mr. Gregory's testimony or affidavit he's filed in 22 opposition to your reelection? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. I have a few procedural matters to 25 take care of. 0133 1 Have you sought or received a pledge 2 of any legislator prior to this date? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Have you sought or have you been 5 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 6 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 9 contact members of the general assembly on your 10 behalf? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 13 commission? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Do you understand that you're 16 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 17 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 18 commission's report? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 21 guidelines on pledging? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. As a follow-up, are you aware of the 24 penalties for violating the pledging rules, that 25 is, it's a misdemeanor and upon conviction the 0134 1 violator must be fined not more than $1,000 or 2 imprisoned not more than 90 days? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Thank you, Judge Fuge. 5 MR. GENTRY: I note that the 6 Lowcountry Citizens Committee found Judge Fuge well 7 qualified for each of the nine evaluative criteria. 8 Mr. Chairman, I have no further 9 questions for Judge Fuge. 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Does any 11 member of the commission have any? 12 Professor. 13 PROF. FREEMAN: Yes. Not a question, 14 but I would ask that this letter and the attached 15 transcript be part of the record here. It is not. 16 It should be part of the record in this hearing. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. We can put 18 that in. 19 Would it be okay if we redacted the 20 minor's name? 21 PROF. FREEMAN: That's fine. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Is there 23 any objection being part into the record with the 24 minor's name being redacted? 25 Without objection, so ordered. 0135 1 Any other questions from the 2 committee? 3 This concludes this portion of our 4 screening process, Judge. As you know, the record 5 will remain open until the report is published, and 6 you may be called back at such time if the need 7 arises. 8 I'll remind you of the 48-hour rule 9 and ask you to be mindful of that. So mindful that 10 if anyone inquires with you about whether they may 11 or may not advocate for you in the event that you 12 are screened out by this Committee, that you will 13 remind them of the 48-hour rule. 14 JUDGE FUGE: Yes, sir. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for offering. 16 I thank you for your services to the people of 17 South Carolina. And that will conclude it. 18 Mr. Gregory, I want to thank you for 19 taking the time to come up here and give us your 20 views also, sir. Thank you. 21 You're all free to go. 22 MR. GREGORY: Thank you, sir. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Sorry that we were so 24 fair behind, but we just had a long day with 25 unexpected length. 0136 1 (Judge Fuge exited the room.) 2 MS. SHULER: We need to switch 3 notebooks now. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go off the record 5 for the moment. 6 (Off-the-record discussion.) 7 (A recess was taken from 4:41 p.m. to 8 4:44 p.m.) 9 (Judge Wylie entered the room.) 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, sir. 11 JUDGE WYLIE: Good afternoon. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go 13 back on the record at this time. At this time, we 14 have before us the Honorable William J. Wylie, Jr., 15 offering for Family Court, First Circuit, Seat 16 Number 2. 17 If you'd raise your right hand. 18 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 19 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 20 God? 21 JUDGE WYLIE: I do. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Judicial Merit 23 Selection commission has thoroughly investigated 24 your qualifications for the bench. 25 Our inquiries focused on nine 0137 1 evaluative criteria and has included a survey of 2 the bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 3 application materials, a verification of your 4 compliance with state ethics laws, a search 5 newspaper article in which your name appears, a 6 study of previous screenings, a check for economic 7 conflicts of interest. 8 We have received no affidavits filed 9 in opposition to your election. No witnesses are 10 present to testify. 11 I'd ask you if you have any optional 12 opening statement that you'd wish to give. The 13 procedural will be -- and that is purely optional. 14 Then I will turn you over to counsel, they'll have 15 some questions for you. At the conclusion of that, 16 we'll see if any commissioners have a question, and 17 we'll wrap up the hearing. 18 JUDGE WYLIE: All right, thank you. 19 No opening statement. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you so much. 21 Please answer counsel's questions. 22 BY MR. DENNIS: 23 Q. Judge Wylie, I've got just a few 24 procedural matters I'm going to run with you before 25 we get started. You have before you your personal 0138 1 data questionnaire. You've submitted that as part 2 of your application. 3 Are there any amendments you'd like to 4 make to that document at this time? 5 A. There are not. 6 Q. You also have before you a sworn 7 statement in which you answered over 30 questions, 8 or you should have it before you. 9 A. I do. 10 Q. All right. You answered several 11 questions regarding judicial conduct, statutory 12 qualifications, office administration, and 13 temperament. 14 Are there any amendments you'd like to 15 make? 16 A. No. Thank you. 17 MR. DENNIS: At this time, 18 Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask that both Judge 19 Wylie's sworn statement and his personal data 20 questionnaire be made a part of the record. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Without 22 objection, so ordered. 23 (EXH. 4 was enter into the record.) 24 MR. DENNIS: As one final procedural 25 matter, I note for the record that based on the 0139 1 testimony contained in the candidate's PDQ, which 2 has been included in the record with the 3 candidate's consent, Judge Wylie meets the 4 statutory requirements for this position regarding 5 age, residence, and years of practice. 6 BY MR. DENNIS: 7 Q. Judge Wylie, for the record, will you 8 please state your city and judicial circuit of 9 residence. 10 A. Somerville and it's the First Judicial 11 Circuit. 12 Q. Judge Wylie, could you tell the 13 commission why you'd like to continue to serve as a 14 Family Court judge? 15 A. I would say that as Family Court 16 judge, I feel that really it's well suited to my 17 personality, and it gives me an opportunity to use 18 my training and experience and what ability I have 19 to try bring resolutions to problems that are 20 presented with families that are typically in a 21 very crisis situation. And I find it a very 22 rewarding and challenging position. 23 Q. Judge, you address this briefly in 24 your sworn statement, but would you expand for the 25 members of the commission what you feel the 0140 1 appropriate demeanor for a judge should be? 2 A. I think a judge should be mostly 3 serious, certainly have a good sense of humor, to 4 be respectful of those before him or her in the 5 courtroom, to be courteous. I think that sums it 6 up. 7 Q. Thank you, Judge. 8 When the time comes for you to leave 9 the Family Court bench, what would you like for 10 your legacy to be? 11 A. I think I would like my legacy to be 12 that I would have a reputation of being a 13 knowledgeable judge, firm but fair, and one that 14 people would say that what made me a good judge was 15 that I never stopped caring about the people who 16 appeared before me. 17 Q. Judge Wylie, you mention in your 18 materials that a complaint has been filed against 19 you by a litigant since your last screening. The 20 complaint of course was dismissed by the commission 21 for lack of merit. 22 But will you briefly describe the 23 circumstances that led to the complaint? 24 A. I will. This was a case that was 25 heard during a child support rule stay when we have 0141 1 a large of number of rules before us. It's my 2 practice at least in my home circuit to have 3 typically ten to 15 cases brought into the 4 courtroom at the same time. It's not a very large 5 courtroom, but it usually can accommodate that 6 many. 7 I usually start with just some general 8 instructions or comments to the folks that are 9 gathered about my approach to the rules to show 10 cause. This was a fellow that as I recall was -- I 11 had a very poor history, was I think seven or 12 $8,000 behind in his support, immediately was very 13 quit to start bringing up excuses, pointing to 14 everyone but himself as responsible for his being 15 behind in the support. 16 He had his father with him, an older 17 gentleman that was prepared to put up a portion of 18 the amount that was owed. I think he was going to 19 put up four or $5,000 based upon his son's promises 20 to not only pay back the father, but to pay his 21 child support as well. 22 And he seemed -- it was a bit of an 23 attitude of that's all he had to do and he was 24 entitled and just, Judge, this is what I'm doing, 25 so just sign the paperwork and I'll go home was 0142 1 kind of his approach to it. 2 And I decided that certainly I would 3 rather have him working and paying support than 4 just sitting in the county jail. And there was 5 money being offered that I knew the mother of the 6 children needed and hadn't received any support in 7 a very long time. 8 So even though I ruled that he was in 9 contempt, I made a sentence that allowed him to 10 purge that contempt, which meant he didn't have to 11 go to jail by continuing to pay as he had been 12 ordered to pay that partial sum that day toward the 13 arrears that he had accumulated. 14 Part of the sentence was that in order 15 to purge that contempt instead of going to jail 16 immediately, he would have to spend I believe it 17 was the next three months paying on time and not 18 missing any payments as a condition of the purging 19 that if he failed do that, a bench warrant would be 20 issued. 21 And then in order to purge the 22 contempt, he would have to pay the full amount he 23 owed, whatever that might be, plus I think $300 24 court costs is what I assessed. 25 In announcing that decision, and even 0143 1 though he was so far behind and had such a bad 2 history, I made a point of trying to impress upon 3 him that if he didn't pay and he did come back to 4 court, that he would be going to jail. 5 And I did use some harsh language that 6 was probably a bit more personal than it needed to 7 be. I think that I told him if he was back before 8 me, that I would make sure that he went to jail for 9 as long as I could put him in jail, as long as I 10 was permitted to. If he had taken his father's 11 money to get out and didn't pay support, not to 12 expect any mercy when he returned under those 13 circumstances. 14 And as it turned out, the father paid 15 the money. This fellow never paid another dime in 16 support and so he was arrested. And he was quite 17 candid in his grievance in the letter he wrote that 18 he was using or hoping that my comments to him 19 would be a reason that he could get out of jail 20 early. 21 I sent the grievance folks not just a 22 transcript of the proceeding, but the audio tapes 23 so that they could hear the tone and demeanor of my 24 comments. And while I made some very pointed 25 remarks to this man, it was not done in a loud or 0144 1 angry sort of fashion. I thought the tone of the 2 delivery was important. 3 But at the same time, as I told them, 4 I recognize that my comments were probably harsher 5 than they needed to. And even though I was trying 6 to impress upon him the importance of complying 7 with that order he never had done before, I 8 probably went a little bit overboard in my remarks. 9 Q. And Judge, when we discussed this 10 matter, you expressed to me that you used it as a 11 learning opportunity. 12 Would you quickly tell the commission 13 how that transpired? 14 A. Well, let me say this. I think that 15 probably the best advice that I haven't followed is 16 what is frequently told to judges, that we really 17 shouldn't say anything more than is necessary than 18 to announce our decision. 19 But I think in the Family Court with 20 juveniles, with some of these folks involved in 21 domestic violence, these child support cases, there 22 is a real opportunity for a judge to have some 23 comments, to make a lecture or to give a bit of 24 sermon, if you will, that can make a difference, I 25 think, in these people's lives. 0145 1 So I'm not suggesting that this taught 2 me that I should never try to make a point with 3 this person and to impress upon them something that 4 I think they need to hear. But it's made me, I 5 think, more aware of just trying to make sure I 6 draw a line of making a point and saying a thing 7 that could be taken as a personal sort of attack or 8 comment. 9 Q. Judge, thank you. 10 One final question, would you have any 11 suggestions for how to help alleviate the backlog 12 in Family Court dockets? 13 A. That's -- it's a difficult issue. I 14 think that in most circuits, ours included, we do 15 some things, and not everybody does it, it just 16 might help, one of the things in the Family Court 17 cases often have a motion for temporary relief. 18 Those we try in our circuit to have 19 heard within two to three weeks, realizing that 20 it's important for those people to get into court. 21 We schedule those in blocks of time, and 22 essentially overbook them, knowing that usually one 23 or two will settle, one or two may have to be 24 continued. 25 So instead of setting them every 0146 1 15 minutes, we'll do six per hour. I think that's 2 one thing that really does help us move those 3 motions quickly. Having an active system of 4 pre-trying cases, I think it's a good idea. 5 We try hard to follow the cases to 6 make sure that we're not setting for trial until 7 they're ready to be tried, so that we don't come up 8 a day or two before a block of time has been set 9 aside, a week maybe for a trial, just to find out 10 that it has to be continued. The discovery wasn't 11 complete, there's information that's needed that -- 12 to present at trial that the attorneys don't have. 13 So I think that an intense and 14 intentional pretrial system is good. And also, we 15 schedule backup cases. If a case settles at the 16 last minute, we try to make sure that if they're 17 ready and can go forward, that there's another case 18 that can be brought in. And I think those things 19 help with scheduling. 20 Q. And I know I said that was going to be 21 my last substantive question, but I've got one 22 more, Judge. 23 Can you describe your general 24 philosophy regarding pro se litigants in your 25 courtroom? 0147 1 A. I draw a distinction between pro se 2 litigants that are involved in an uncontested case, 3 a simple divorce, a name change, something of that 4 nature. We typically schedule those on Fridays and 5 have a large block of them that run. 6 In those cases, I think it's fine for 7 the judge to be helpful, to assist them with the 8 process to make sure that they're able to present 9 their case. One of the things I try to do with the 10 pro se litigants is if it's something I would do 11 for an attorney, I'm going to do it for the pro se 12 litigant. 13 For example, if the pro se litigant 14 were to not offer testimony on a jurisdictional 15 issue, the county of residence, the length of 16 residence in the state, I would ask those questions 17 myself. And usually when it's uncontested, I do a 18 lot of the questioning. 19 When it's a contested matter, I draw a 20 distinction between the -- trying to be helpful to 21 the litigants with the process. I will try to 22 explain my rulings on evidence, I will give them a 23 brief statement about what it means to be on direct 24 examination versus cross-examination, try to give 25 them a little bit of information about how the case 0148 1 should proceed, but I won't -- and I tell them that 2 I can't help one of them against the other. It 3 would be inappropriate for me to help them try to 4 win their case against the other side. So that's 5 the distinction I draw. 6 While I think we can be helpful as 7 judges with the process but just have to guard 8 against appearing to be trying to be an advocate 9 for one side in helping them present their case 10 against the other party. 11 Q. Thank you very much, Judge Wylie. I'm 12 going to run through just a couple of standard 13 housekeeping measures with you. 14 Have you sought or received the pledge 15 of any legislator prior this date? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you sought or have you been 18 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 19 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 22 contact members of the general assembly on your 23 behalf? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you contacted any members of this 0149 1 commission? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you understand that you're 4 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 5 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 6 Commission's report? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 9 guidelines on pledging? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. And are you aware that there's a 12 penalty for violating those provisions, that is, up 13 to $1,000 in fines or 90 days in prison? 14 A. I am indeed. 15 Q. Thank you, Judge. 16 MR. DENNIS: Would like to note that 17 the Lowcountry Citizens Committee reported that 18 Judge Wylie was well qualified for each of the nine 19 evaluative criteria. 20 I would also note for the record that 21 any concerns raised during the investigation 22 regarding the candidate were incorporated into the 23 questioning today. 24 And Mr. Chairman, I have nothing 25 further. 0150 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 2 Let me see if any member of the 3 commission have any -- Senator from Lexington. 4 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you, Judge, for 5 coming today. Let me just ask you one question. 6 What is your philosophy on people who are -- have 7 had bench warrants issued for them for large sums 8 of money where they have evaded the system for 9 quite some time and they've been arrested and law 10 enforcement has went to a great extent to locate 11 them along with DSS trying to locate them and all 12 of the avenues we have for locating these people 13 and they owe large sums of money and have evaded 14 the system; what is your philosophy on that? 15 JUDGE WYLIE: I think most of those we 16 see are typically from out of state, and maybe 17 being here is part of evading, and they've 18 accumulated large amounts that have followed them. 19 SEN. KNOTTS: A lot of times I have to 20 go out to state to get them, track them down. I'm 21 talking about those people that's not really 22 turning themselves in. I'm talking about the 23 people that we have had to go out and extensively 24 searching for them. 25 JUDGE WYLIE: Well, I will tell you 0151 1 this, my general philosophy about the child support 2 is this. When it is brought before me, it is a 3 civil contempt matter. The purpose of that 4 proceeding is not to punish someone for not paying 5 support or not following the court order. It's to 6 find a way to force them into compliance with the 7 order. 8 If it appears to me that it's a person 9 who, you know, now has a job that that can be 10 verified, I would certainly rather have them 11 working and paying in some fashion. But given the 12 history and a history of evasion and the large sums 13 of money that may be owed, that might be the kind 14 of person that I would tend to impose a fairly 15 lengthy contempt sentence of six months, sometimes 16 in real egregious situations, 12 months, since it's 17 civil contempt. 18 I wouldn't be likely to require them 19 to pay -- just to pull this out of the air -- 20 somebody that might owe 30- or $40,000 that would 21 have no possibility of paying that I might require 22 some portion of that, say, $10,000 before they 23 could be released. 24 People in those circumstances, I have 25 found, seemed to often benefit from work release 0152 1 programs that most of the jails operate so that 2 they can -- if they have a job that qualifies with 3 the jail's criteria, they can start going to and 4 from the jail and they would start paying. 5 So that would be my general approach. 6 SEN. KNOTTS: Do you ever forgive 7 the -- or do you believe that the remaining balance 8 could be forgiven or set aside or just turned into 9 a civil judgment? 10 JUDGE WYLIE: I have had requests to 11 turn them into judgments so that they could be used 12 to attach property that someone has located. But I 13 don't think a judge has the authority just to do 14 away with those arrears. 15 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 17 If not, Judge, this concludes this 18 portion of our screening process. As you know, the 19 record will remain open until the report is 20 published. You may be called back at such time as 21 the need arises. I know of nothing else 22 outstanding. 23 I'll remind you of the 48-hour rule 24 and ask you to be mindful of that. So mindful that 25 if, in fact, someone inquires of you about whether 0153 1 they may or not advocate for you in the event that 2 you're screened out by this Committee, that you 3 remind them of the 48-hour rule in force. 4 Thank you for offering. We thank you 5 for your past service to the people of South 6 Carolina. Have a good day. 7 JUDGE WYLIE: Thank you. It's been my 8 pleasure. 9 (Judge Wylie exited the room.) 10 (Off-the-record discussion.) 11 (Judge McLin entered the room.) 12 JUDGE McLIN: Good afternoon. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. 14 We'll go back on the record at this 15 point. We have before us the Honorable Nancy 16 Chapman McLin. She's offering for Family Court, 17 First Circuit, Seat Number 3. 18 If you would raise your right hand. 19 Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and 20 nothing but the truth, so help you God? 21 JUDGE McLIN: I do. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 23 The Judicial Merit Selection 24 commission has thoroughly investigated your 25 qualifications for the bench. 0154 1 Our inquiries focused on our nine 2 evaluative criteria and has included a survey of 3 the bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 4 application materials, a verification of your 5 compliance to state ethics laws, a search of 6 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a 7 study of previous screenings, and a check of 8 economic conflicts of interest. 9 We received no affidavits filed in 10 opposition to your election. No witnesses are 11 present to testify. But I ask you if you have any 12 opening statements you want to make. It's purely 13 optional. 14 The procedure will be, I will turn you 15 over to counsel. Counsel will ask you some 16 questions. At the conclusion of those questions, 17 any of the Commissioners may follow up, and then we 18 will conclude the hearing. 19 JUDGE McLIN: Thank you, sir. I 20 appreciate you all giving me an opportunity to be 21 here today. I enjoy this job very much. And I'm 22 happy to answer any questions you may have. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you so much. 24 Please answer counsel's questions. 25 MR. FIFFICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 0155 1 Mr. Chairman and members of the 2 commission, I have a few procedural matters to take 3 care of with this candidate. 4 BY MR. FIFFICK: 5 Q. Judge McLin, you have before you the 6 personal data questionnaire that you submitted as 7 part of your application. 8 Is there any amendment that you would 9 like to make at this time to your PDQ? 10 A. No, sir. 11 MR. FIFFICK: At this time, 12 Mr. Chairman, I would ask that Judge McLin's 13 personal data questionnaire be entered as an 14 exhibit to the hearing record. 15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 16 ordered. 17 (EXH. 5 was enter into the record.) 18 BY MR. FIFFICK: 19 Q. Judge McLin, you also have before you 20 a sworn statement you provided with detailed 21 answers to over 30 questions regarding judicial 22 conduct, statutory qualifications, office 23 administration, and temperament. 24 Is there any amendment you would like 25 to make to it at this time? 0156 1 JUDGE McLIN: No, sir. 2 MR. FIFFICK: At this time, Mr. 3 Chairman, I would ask that Judge McLin's sworn 4 statement be entered as an exhibit into the hearing 5 record. 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 7 ordered. 8 BY MR. FIFFICK: 9 Q. Judge McLin, could you please state 10 for the record the city and judicial circuit in 11 which you reside. 12 A. I reside in Somerville. The circuit 13 is the First Circuit. 14 MR. FIFFICK: One final procedural 15 matter. I note for the record that based on the 16 testimony contained in the candidate's PDQ, which 17 has been included in the record with the 18 candidate's consent, Judge McLin meets the 19 statutory requirements for this position regarding 20 age, residency, and years of practice. 21 BY MR. FIFFICK: 22 Q. Judge McLin, why do you want to 23 continue to serve? 24 A. I find the job very challenging, it's 25 something new every day. I enjoy working with the 0157 1 lawyers, the witnesses and court personnel. It's 2 an area of the law that I enjoy and the job's been 3 great for the last 12 years now. 4 Q. Although you address this in your 5 sworn affidavit, could you please tell the 6 commission what you think the appropriate demeanor 7 is for a judge? 8 A. Of course we're bound by the canons 9 and judicial ethics and the judicial code that we 10 take. Judges must be courteous, patient, kind, 11 listen carefully, and after due consideration and 12 diligence, make a decision promptly. And make a 13 strict effort to comply with all of those rules. 14 Q. And what's your theory as to pro se 15 litigants, how they should be treated in a 16 courtroom? 17 A. They should be treated with the same 18 respect and courtesy that anyone that enters the 19 courtroom is treated. If they had a lawyer, 20 they're treated with the same respect and dignity. 21 When they come in, the rules apply to them just as 22 they do to other cases. And they're welcome just 23 as anyone represented is welcome in the court. 24 Q. Thank you. 25 MR. FIFFICK: Prior to my next line of 0158 1 questions I would like to note that the Lowcountry 2 Citizens Committee found Judge McLin well qualified 3 in all areas including ethical fitness, character, 4 and judicial temperament. 5 Further, the commission has received 6 no formal complaints and no negative bench and bars 7 as to Judge McLin. 8 BY MR. FIFFICK: 9 Q. Judge McLin, as we discussed earlier 10 in the screening process, the South Carolina bar's 11 2008 judicial valuation survey yielded some results 12 I felt compelled to bring to the Commission's 13 attention. 14 It contains an average of 120 15 responses to a survey mailed to 8,000 active 16 attorneys around the state. In the survey of 41 17 judges, you were one of ten judges whose survey 18 results indicate a potential pattern of temperament 19 problems. 20 Of particular concern to the 21 commission is that 20 percent of the responding 22 lawyers felt you were deficient in the area of 23 courtesy to all lawyers, 14 percent felt you were 24 deficient in the area of courtesy to all litigants, 25 and 18 percent felt you were deficient as to 0159 1 judicial demeanor and temperament generally. 2 How do you respond to these survey 3 results? 4 A. I was disappointed that anybody gave 5 me that response back. I would like to have 6 excellent in all of the responses. I'm mindful of 7 the canons and the oath that we take. 8 You know, when I reflected back on it, 9 I tried to figure out why those responses would 10 come in even before I was asked the question in 11 this process. 12 The only thing I can figure is that 13 I'm a stickler for the rules. There are occasions 14 when I admonished the lawyers if they don't comply 15 with the guardian statute or with the Rules of 16 Civil Procedure. Perhaps sometimes they might take 17 that admonishment personally. 18 I have gone -- tried to go a little 19 extra mile and be even more courteous and friendly 20 as people come to the courtroom. But that's the 21 only response I can think of why they might take 22 that personally. 23 Q. Thank you, ma'am. 24 How do you respond to results 25 indicating that 13 of the respondents felt you 0160 1 lacked fair and effective settlement skills, and 2 12 percent felt you were deficient as to fair and 3 efficient trial management? 4 A. You know, again in Dorchester County, 5 the First Circuit, we've implemented a procedure to 6 increase trial conferences and sometimes the 7 lawyers like to get a hearing set before maybe the 8 case is ready. 9 To manage the docket, we've had to 10 strictly give out our time to cases that are ready 11 so that we can give them prompt hearings when 12 they're ready and so that the court time isn't 13 wasted. 14 Sometimes the lawyers don't like that 15 procedure, that they can't get a hearing now 16 because it's a little easier to tell your client, 17 Well, there's a hearing coming up six months or 18 nine months from now. 19 But if we want to manage the docket 20 promptly, we found that we've had to kind of stay 21 on these cases a little tighter, set up scheduling. 22 And sometimes that might be one of the reasons I 23 get a response that they don't like the management. 24 Q. How do you respond to the results 25 indicating that 13 percent felt you were influenced 0161 1 by the identities of lawyers, and 10 percent felt 2 you were influenced by the identity of the 3 litigants? 4 A. You know, in Family Court, you know, 5 lot of times when you make that decision kind of 6 middle and divide things up, people tend to think 7 that the basis that you didn't go their way is 8 because you're female or because you don't like the 9 lawyer, the lawyer's a female or something. 10 So sometimes you get that type of 11 reaction to your decision, when clearly I have to 12 weigh the decision based on the evidence that's 13 submitted and make a decision that's appropriate 14 under the circumstances and facts of each case. 15 Q. And finally, how do you respond to the 16 results indicating that 16 percent felt that you 17 may be biased or were prejudiced for the 18 prosecution? 19 A. That's interesting, because we don't 20 do -- in Dorchester County, which is where I am 21 mainly, we do juveniles for about half a day. Most 22 of the cases that come through on our juveniles are 23 guilty pleas and oftentimes they're negotiated 24 pleas. 25 So I really don't know why there would 0162 1 be that type of response other than perhaps from 2 someone that's not used to appearing in the court 3 and not familiar with the process. 4 Q. Thank you. 5 You submitted a written response. 6 Would you like to have that entered into the 7 record? 8 A. I'd be happy to enter that into the 9 record. I appreciate the consideration. 10 Q. Thank you, Judge McLin. 11 I have a few more questions we ask of 12 every candidate. 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. Have you sought or received the pledge 15 of any legislator prior to this date? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you sought or have you been 18 offered a conditional pledge of support from any 19 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 22 contact members of the general assembly on your 23 behalf? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 0163 1 commission? 2 A. No, I have not. 3 Q. Do you understand that you are 4 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 5 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 6 Commission's report? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 9 guidelines on pledging? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. As a follow-up, are you aware of the 12 penalties for violating the pledging rules, that 13 is, it is a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, the 14 violator must be fined not more than $1,000 or 15 imprisoned not more than 90 days? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Thank you. 18 MR. FIFFICK: Finally, I would just 19 note for the record that any concerns raised during 20 the investigation regarding the candidate were 21 incorporated into the questioning of the candidate 22 today. 23 Mr. Chairman, I have no further 24 questions. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 0164 1 Does any member of the commission have 2 a question? I would just tell you that temperament 3 is very important to us. 4 JUDGE McLIN: Yes, sir. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: And I appreciate your 6 responses to it and -- 7 JUDGE McLIN: Thank you. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: I notice, though, that 9 the Lowcountry Citizens Committee, which is very 10 thorough in their job, gave you very good remarks 11 and did not criticize you on temperament. 12 JUDGE McLIN: Thank you, sir. I 13 appreciate it, and I'm glad to hear that. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, that will 15 conclude this portion of the screening process. As 16 you know, the record will remain open until the 17 report is published, and you may be called back at 18 such time as the need arises. You really have 19 nothing outstanding. 20 Let me again remind you of the 48-hour 21 rule and ask you to be very mindful of it. So 22 mindful that if, in fact, this Committee reports 23 you out and someone approaches you on the question 24 of whether they may or may not advocate on your 25 behalf, please remind them about the 48-hour rule. 0165 1 Thank you for offering. Thank you for 2 your previous service to South Carolina. Have a 3 nice afternoon. 4 JUDGE McLIN: Thank you very much, 5 Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 6 (Judge McLin exited the room.) 7 (Off-the-record discussion.) 8 (Judge McFadden entered the room.) 9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, sir. 10 JUDGE McFADDEN: How are you, Senator? 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. 12 We'll go back on the record at this 13 time. We have before us the Honorable George M. 14 McFadden, Family Court, Third Circuit, Seat 15 Number 1. 16 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 17 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 18 God? 19 JUDGE McFADDEN: Yes, sir. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 21 The Judicial Merit Selection 22 commission has thoroughly investigated your 23 qualifications for the bench and we focused on our 24 nine evaluative criteria and has included in the 25 survey of the bench and the bar, a thorough study 0166 1 of your application materials, verification of your 2 compliance with state ethics laws, a search of 3 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a 4 study of previous screenings, and a check for 5 economic conflicts of interest. 6 We received no affidavits filed in 7 opposition to your election, and no witnesses are 8 present to testify. 9 So I would ask you if you have any 10 brief opening statement you wish to make. It's 11 purely optional. The procedure we will follow is 12 this: Counsel will ask you some questions. It 13 will be followed by any questions the commissioners 14 may have. And at the conclusion of that, that'll 15 wrap up the hearing. 16 JUDGE McFADDEN: No, sir, no opening 17 statement. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 19 Please answer counsel's questions. 20 BY MS. SHULER: 21 Q. Good afternoon, Judge McFadden. 22 A. How are you, ma'am? 23 Q. Good. 24 You have before you the personal data 25 questionnaire you submitted as part of your 0167 1 application. 2 Are there any additional amendments 3 that you would like to make at this time to your 4 PDQ besides the October 8th, 2009 letter amendment 5 that you made? 6 A. That would have been about my 7 expenses, ma'am? 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. The only thing that I will add to 10 that, and I will do this by letter when I get back 11 to Sumter, is to indicate that -- I know this seems 12 highly technical -- about six gallons of gas would 13 come down to $2.49 a gallon, ma'am. 14 Q. Actually, mileage you do not have to 15 report -- 16 A. Okay. Well, I was just being careful. 17 Q. -- just postage and stationery. 18 A. I was just being careful, ma'am. 19 Q. Thank you, sir. 20 MS. SHULER: At this time I would ask 21 that Judge McFadden's PDQ as well as his amendment 22 letter be entered into the record as an exhibit. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Without 24 objection, so ordered. 25 (EXH. 6 was enter into the record.) 0168 1 BY MS. SHULER: 2 Q. Judge McFadden, you also have before 3 you the sworn statement -- and I would note that 4 the letter amendment also included amendments to 5 the sworn statement Number 13 and Number 26. 6 But in the sworn statement you have 7 provided us with detailed answers to over 30 8 questions regarding judicial conduct, statutory 9 qualifications, office administration, and 10 temperament. 11 Are there any other amendments you 12 would like to make at this time? 13 A. No, ma'am, not that I can think of 14 today. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 MS. SHULER: I would ask that Judge 17 McFadden's sworn statement be entered into the 18 record as an exhibit at this time. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 20 ordered. 21 BY MS. SHULER: 22 Q. Judge McFadden, would you state the 23 city and circuit within which you reside. 24 A. I live in Sumter County. My seat for 25 court is Sumter City and I live in the Third 0169 1 Circuit and -- well, that's where I am most of the 2 time. 3 MS. SHULER: I would note for the 4 record that Judge McFadden meets the statutory 5 qualifications for this seat. 6 BY MS. SHULER: 7 Q. Judge McFadden, why do you now want to 8 continue serving as a Family Court judge? 9 A. Ms. Shuler, I have started several 10 processes I want to see through to the end. One is 11 to continue holding adoption days on a semi-annual 12 basis to expedite these adoptions that are 13 languishing on dockets across the state, to move 14 them as quick as possible. 15 I also want to continue working with 16 the Children's Law Committee where I'm serving to 17 hopefully make uniform the DSS process across the 18 state so that we don't have 46 different 19 procedures, but perhaps we'll just have just one 20 for the sake of DSS, the litigants, and judges. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 Judge McFadden, could you explain your 23 general philosophy for dealing with pro se 24 litigants who come before you in Family Court? 25 A. I treat them with what I call tender 0170 1 loving care, Ms. Shuler. I have to remind myself 2 that I work in that courtroom every day, and it's a 3 foreign place when they come in that door. 4 Many of them are extremely nervous, 5 afraid and confused. I don't represent them 6 because I cannot, but I help them as much as I can 7 without being unfair to the other party, whether 8 that party's represented or not, ma'am. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 Judge McFadden, since your last 11 screening you've also been sued. Please explain 12 the nature of the lawsuit and the disposition. 13 A. I was sued by a gentleman named -- 14 last name is Hill, I can't -- Larry Hill. He sued 15 me about, I think it was 2003. He was extremely 16 angry because after about a 25-year marriage, I 17 gave his wife half of the marital estate, and he 18 was just incensed about that. 19 He filed a lawsuit in Sumter County 20 Court of Common Pleas basically saying I had denied 21 him due process. That suit was removed to Federal 22 Court and Judge Matthew Perry dismissed about a 23 year later, ma'am, based on judicial immunity. 24 Q. Thank you, Judge McFadden. 25 Some housekeeping issues to cover with 0171 1 you. 2 Have you sought or received the pledge 3 of any legislator prior to this date? 4 A. No, ma'am. 5 Q. Have you sought or have you been 6 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 7 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 8 A. No, ma'am. 9 Q. Have you asked any third party to 10 contact members of the general assembly on your 11 behalf? 12 A. No, ma'am. 13 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 14 commission? 15 A. No, ma'am. 16 Q. Do you understand that you are 17 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 18 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 19 commission's report? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. Have you review the Commission's 22 guidelines on pledging? 23 A. Yes, ma'am. 24 Q. Are you aware a violation of the 25 pledging guidelines could be considered a 0172 1 misdemeanor and that you could be fined not more 2 than a thousand dollars and imprisoned not more 3 than 90 days? 4 A. Yes, ma'am. 5 Q. I would note that the PD Citizens 6 Committee found that Judge McFadden was well 7 qualified for each of the nine evaluative criteria: 8 Constitutional qualifications, ethical fitness, 9 professional and academic ability, character, 10 reputation, physical health, mental stability, 11 experience, and judicial temperament. 12 They also noted with respect to 13 reputation that Judge McFadden is known in this 14 community as an honest, caring judge who diligently 15 tries to do what is in the best interest of the 16 parties before him. 17 I would just note for the record that 18 any concerns raised during the investigation 19 regarding this candidate are incorporated into my 20 questioning of the candidate today. 21 MS. SHULER: Mr. Chairman, I have no 22 further questions for Judge McFadden. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 Does any member of the commission have 25 a question? 0173 1 Senator from Lexington. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: One quick question, 3 Mr. Chairman. 4 Thank you for serving as a Family 5 Court judge and -- but the question I'm going to 6 ask you is your philosophy, general philosophy, on 7 how cases for child support are handled or should 8 be handled with people who have evaded the system 9 and bench warrants have had to be issued, and the 10 State of South Carolina has had to go out and 11 expend a lot of finances to locate them, sometimes 12 in other states in large amounts of money where 13 they have, in some cases, skipped the state and 14 been gone for 10, 12 years to evade paying child 15 support. 16 What is -- do you think the -- what is 17 your philosophy on handling those type of cases in 18 your area? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, 19 I'm trying to get a survey of how these -- because 20 we have a bad problem in this state with deadbeat 21 dads and moms. 22 JUDGE McFADDEN: Yes, sir. First of 23 all, in Sumter County I see this on occasion when a 24 fugitive -- I call them fugitive deadbeats -- are 25 brought back to court, the sheriff's department 0174 1 will generally submit a request for reimbursement 2 of expenses to go get that person from another 3 state or from the upstate or somewhere in South 4 Carolina. 5 I have to consider the totality of the 6 circumstances on each one of those cases, Senator 7 Knotts. I try -- well, they're almost always found 8 in contempt, not arbitrarily, sir, but based on the 9 fact. 10 And if they are, I try to set purge 11 amount that will give them some chance to get out 12 of the jail but also that will have some 13 significant portion of that arrearage paid in order 14 to get out of jail. 15 I've got a custodial mother or 16 sometimes custodial father over here who needs some 17 support. If they -- the fugitive parent owes some 18 huge amount 15-, 20,000 and above, it's almost 19 always impossible to even get all that in one bite 20 to have them purge themselves out of jail. 21 So I try to consider the facts to 22 include some degree of the aggravation of having to 23 go get these people and how long they've evaded 24 service. I do not, I cannot just wipe away 25 arrearage. By statute, I can't modify arrears and 0175 1 child support. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you. 3 JUDGE McFADDEN: Yes, sir. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 5 If not, I would simply tell you, 6 Judge, that the comments of Citizens Committee are 7 very fine, indicates a tremendous performance on 8 the job for them to gone out of the way to say what 9 they said about you. 10 JUDGE McFADDEN: Thank you, sir. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, it concludes 12 this portion of our screening process. As you 13 know, the record will remain open until the report 14 is published and you may be called back at such 15 time if the need arises. I know of nothing that's 16 outstanding. 17 We'll need to remind you of the 18 48-hour rule and ask you to be mindful of that. So 19 mindful in fact that if someone should inquire with 20 you as to whether they may or may not advocate for 21 you in the event this Committee should report you 22 out, you will remind them about the 48-hour rule. 23 JUDGE McFADDEN: Well, Senator, I 24 surely will. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for offering. 0176 1 Thank you for your service to the people of South 2 Carolina, and have a great day. 3 JUDGE McFADDEN: Thank you. 4 (Judge McFadden exited the room.) 5 (Off-the-record discussion.) 6 (Judge Jones entered the room.) 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, we'll go 8 back on the record. At this time we have before us 9 the Honorable Dorothy Mobley Jones, Family Court, 10 Fifth Circuit, Seat Number 1. 11 Would you be kind enough to raise your 12 right hand. 13 JUDGE JONES: Yes, sir. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you swear to tell 15 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 16 truth, so help you God? 17 JUDGE JONES: I certainly do. 18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 19 The Judicial Merit Selection 20 commission has thoroughly investigated your 21 qualifications for the bench. 22 Our inquiries focused on nine 23 evaluative criteria, has included a survey of the 24 bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 25 application materials, a verification of your 0177 1 compliance with state ethics laws, a search of 2 newspaper articles in which you name appears, a 3 study of previous screenings, and a check for 4 economic conflicts of interest. 5 We have received an untimely affidavit 6 filed in opposition to your election. The 7 commission voted that good cause was not shown to 8 consider the untimely affidavit. No witnesses are 9 present to testify. 10 If you have any brief opening 11 statement you'd like to make at this time, that is 12 purely optional with you. The process that we 13 follow is that staff counsel will provide you with 14 some questions. At the conclusion of that, the 15 Commissioners may have questions, and then we'll 16 wrap up the hearing. 17 JUDGE JONES: Thank you, sir. I don't 18 have any opening remarks. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 20 Please answer counsel's questions. 21 BY MS. SHULER: 22 Q. Good afternoon. 23 A. Good afternoon. 24 Q. You have before you the personal data 25 questionnaire that you submitted as part of your 0178 1 application. 2 Are there any additional amendments 3 that you would like to make at this time to your 4 PDQ? 5 A. No, there are not. 6 Q. All right. 7 MS. SHULER: I would ask, 8 Mr. Chairman, that Judge Jones' PDQ with amendments 9 be entered into the exhibit -- as an exhibit into 10 the hearing record. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 12 ordered. 13 (EXH. 7 was enter into the record.) 14 BY MS. SHULER: 15 Q. Judge Jones, you also have before you 16 the sworn statement you provided with detailed 17 answers to over 30 questions regarding judicial 18 conduct, statutory qualifications, office 19 administration, and temperament. 20 Are there any additional amendments 21 you would like to make at this time to your sworn 22 statement? 23 A. No, there are not. 24 MS. SHULER: Mr. Chairman, I would ask 25 at this time that Judge Jones' sworn statement be 0179 1 entered as an exhibit into the hearing record. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 3 ordered. 4 MS. SHULER: I would also note for the 5 record that based on the testimony contained in the 6 candidate's PDQ, that Judge Jones meets the 7 statutory requirements for this position regarding 8 age, residence, and years of practice. 9 BY MS. SHULER: 10 Q. Judge Jones, would you state for the 11 record your city and circuit of residence. 12 A. Yes, it's Columbia. And it is South 13 Carolina, Richland County, Seat 5 -- I'm sorry, 14 Fifth Judicial Circuit, Seat 1. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 Judge Jones, why do you want to 17 continue serving as a Family Court judge in the 18 Fifth Judicial Circuit? 19 A. Well, this is the first time I've been 20 up for reelection. So I can say to you and say to 21 this commission that it's really been a pleasure to 22 serve on the other side of the bench. 23 I was of course on the advocate side 24 for over 25 years, and I really thought that's what 25 I wanted to do the rest of my life. And I 0180 1 thoroughly enjoyed practicing family law. 2 I've had a very -- I'd call it a new 3 experience on this side of the bench, and I enjoy 4 it. I feel like I can do more good, help more 5 people. I feel like I do have a good temperament 6 for Family Court. Certainly, the years I've put in 7 in the family law practice have given me a 8 background that is just invaluable. 9 When you practice family law for over 10 25 years, you practice in many counties. They're 11 small, they're rural, they're big cities. You 12 represent fathers, mothers, husband, wives, 13 children. 14 And now I have the benefit of taking 15 all those experiences over all those years and 16 applying it in a courtroom when the litigants come 17 before me. So I do feel like I have, if you will, 18 you know, the background to pull from. And it's 19 just a pleasure going to work every day. 20 Q. Thank you, Judge Jones. 21 You stated that you have a good 22 temperament to serve as a judge. Could you explain 23 what is the temperament that is necessary for a 24 judge? 25 A. Well, in Family Court when your 0181 1 litigants come in there, they're already agitated, 2 they're in emotional distress, most of them, 3 they're concerned about what they're going to 4 loose, whether it's their relationship with their 5 children or their homes or, you know, the assets 6 they've worked for for many years. 7 And if they're in your courtroom, that 8 means they didn't settle it, they didn't resolve it 9 in mediation or their attorneys couldn't work it 10 out, and they're looking to you. And that's quite 11 a responsibility. 12 So we take them sometimes at their 13 worst, in other words, their most vulnerable. And 14 we understand that, and we try to be calm, and we 15 try to be reassuring to them. 16 And I just feel like I'm able to do 17 that. I've done that for so long and I've dealt 18 with these issues, and every case is unique. But I 19 do try to be at least a fair and impartial judge, 20 someone who's going to listen to their side, no 21 matter how small their case or how large the issue 22 is. 23 Q. As a follow-up, is anger every 24 appropriate in the courtroom or harshness? 25 A. I really don't think so. I don't 0182 1 think anger would be. I can see where there are 2 occasions sometimes when we've repeat litigants who 3 come in violating court orders. And by this I mean 4 more than once or twice. 5 And I think it's certainly reasonable 6 to let them know they violated a court order and 7 what their sanction may be. But to show anger, I 8 don't think that would be appropriate. 9 Q. Thank you, Judge Jones. 10 Would you explain your general 11 philosophy for dealing with pro se litigants who 12 come before you in the Family Court? 13 A. I'll be glad to. In fact, we now have 14 SR- -- they're called SRL, self-represented 15 litigants. We also called them pro se before. 16 The chief justice brought this to our 17 attention two years ago at our conference because 18 she realized that judges are not screening pro se 19 litigants or self-represented litigants the same. 20 There was no uniformity because it was a relatively 21 new concept several years ago. 22 So she has a program, Access to 23 Justice, and it was very enlightening. We saw 24 videos of various court hearings where pro se 25 litigants have been before judges, and we saw the 0183 1 need for some uniformity. 2 The chief justice then, through her 3 committee, put out forms for pro se litigants' 4 needs. And now in Richland County we have as many 5 as three days a week pro se litigants. 6 So when they come before you, they're 7 not lawyers, you can't represent them. But you do 8 try to explain to them the process, I try to 9 explain to them exactly how we go through the 10 procedures, when they can speak and what they're 11 expected to do for themselves. 12 They know to ask questions if they 13 don't understand. And we really help them. I feel 14 like that it is our responsibility now for our 15 chief justice to try to help them get through that 16 hearing. And that's what we do. 17 We're courteous, we're respectful to 18 them, and we try to make them feel as comfortable 19 as we can within the courtroom. 20 Q. Judge Jones, as a follow-up, what is 21 your general philosophy for granting a continuance 22 when it's requested by a self-represented litigant? 23 A. All right. It certainly depends on 24 the circumstances. If you're talking about a case 25 where you have two pro se litigants, once the 0184 1 motion is made, we then look to see when that 2 litigant was served. And that's very important. 3 They may have just been served the day 4 before, they could have been served a week or a 5 month before. So we first look to see when did 6 they have notice to be here. 7 Then try to find out what's the reason 8 for that request for a continuance. And if it's 9 reasonable, of course we're going to consider it. 10 We have to ask the opposing side, Do you have an 11 objection to the motion for a continuance? 12 And then we have to decide and weigh 13 why that side wants a continuance against why the 14 other side doesn't. Sometimes it is not two pro se 15 litigants. But that is the way we would handle it. 16 I really cannot remember denying a 17 motion to continue unless it was untimely made, in 18 other words, at the beginning of the hearing when 19 someone made it very clear they didn't want to go 20 forward. If the service had been within a week, I 21 think I have, you know, continued those. If it's 22 been a month, sometimes I haven't. 23 But I've already tried to make sure 24 that it was a reasonable and a fair, if you would, 25 fair -- the word I'm trying to say is form, I 0185 1 guess. In other words, I don't want one litigant 2 to have an upper hand over the other. 3 So I try to make it as fair for them 4 as possible. But to tell you exactly how we do it, 5 we'd have to take it on case-by-case basis. 6 Q. Right. Thank you, Judge Jones. 7 I have housekeeping matters to cover 8 with you. 9 Have you sought or received the pledge 10 of any legislator prior to this day? 11 A. No, I have not. 12 Q. Have you sought or have you been 13 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 14 legislator pending the outcome of this screening? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 17 contact members of the general assembly on your 18 behalf? 19 A. No, I have no. 20 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 21 commission? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you understand that you're 24 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 25 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 0186 1 Commission's report? 2 A. I understand that. 3 Q. Have you review the Commission's 4 guidelines on pledging? 5 A. I have. 6 Q. Are you aware of the penalty, that is, 7 it's a misdemeanor and if convicted a thousand 8 dollars -- 9 A. A thousand dollars and 90 days, I 10 think it is. 11 MS. SHULER: I would note that the 12 Midlands Citizens Committee found that Judge Jones 13 is well qualified for each of the nine of our 14 evaluative criteria. 15 They also found Judge Jones an 16 outstanding and wonderful asset to our state 17 judiciary. We were honored to interview her and 18 believe she is very eminently qualified to continue 19 her outstanding service to our state as a Family 20 Court judge. 21 I would just note for the record that 22 any concerns raised during the investigation 23 regarding this candidate were incorporated in my 24 questioning of the candidate today. 25 Senator McConnell, I have no further 0187 1 questions. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 Let's see if any member of the 4 commission has a question. 5 Any questions? 6 Professor Freeman. 7 PROF. FREEMAN: I just want to note 8 that comment about outstanding and wonderful asset, 9 you might have somebody in your family get you a 10 T-shirt with that on, because that is -- that's 11 really something. I have an outstanding and 12 wonderful asset. 13 JUDGE JONES: I would love to think 14 that. I don't think my 18-year-old would agree 15 with that. Thank you, Professor. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Professor, I don't 17 think we've heard that any Committee on -- 18 PROF. FREEMAN: That's the topper 19 right there. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: That was. 21 JUDGE JONES: Well, thank you very 22 much. 23 MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a great gratitude. 24 JUDGE JONES: Thank you. 25 Is there anything else I -- 0188 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me put on the 2 record, before I conclude this, that Senator Knotts 3 has recused himself from this particular screening. 4 And with that, this concludes this 5 portion of the screening process. As you know, the 6 record remain open until the report is published 7 and you may be called back at such time if the need 8 arises. 9 I remind you of the 48-hour rule and I 10 ask you to be mindful of that. So mindful that, in 11 fact, if this committee should report you out and 12 someone should approach you about whether or not 13 they may or may not advocate on your behalf, please 14 remind them of the 48-hour rule. 15 JUDGE JONES: I certainly will. Thank 16 you. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 18 JUDGE JONES: Thank you all very much. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for offering. 20 Thank you for your service to the people of South 21 Carolina. Have a great day. 22 JUDGE JONES: Thank you. 23 (Judge Jones exited the room.) 24 (Off-the-record discussion.) 25 (Judge Rucker entered the room.) 0189 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have before us 2 Honorable John M. Rucker, Family Court, Eighth 3 Circuit, Seat Number 2. 4 If you'd raise your right hand, 5 please. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole 6 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 7 JUDGE RUCKER: I do. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 9 The Judicial Merit Selection 10 commission has thoroughly investigated your 11 qualifications for the bench. Our inquiries has 12 focused on our nine evaluative criteria including a 13 survey of the bench and the bar, a thorough study 14 of your application materials, a verification of 15 your compliance with state ethics laws, a search of 16 newspapers articles in which your name appears, a 17 study of previous screenings, and check for 18 economic conflicts of interest. 19 We have received no affidavits filed 20 in opposition to your election, and no witnesses 21 are present to testify. 22 You're welcome to make an opening 23 statement if you wish. It is purely optional. The 24 procedure otherwise would be, I will turn you over 25 to staff. They will ask you a few questions. The 0190 1 commissioners will have an opportunity to ask some 2 questions, and we will wrap the hearing up. 3 JUDGE RUCKER: Since it's optional, I 4 will decline to make an opening statement. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 6 Please answer staff counsel's 7 questions. 8 BY MS. SHULER: 9 Q. Good after- -- good evening, Judge 10 Rucker. 11 A. Good evening to you. 12 Q. You have before you your personal data 13 questionnaire and your sworn statement. 14 Do you have any additional amendments 15 you would like to make your application documents? 16 A. No, ma'am. 17 MS. SHULER: I would ask, 18 Mr. Chairman, that Judge Rucker's personal data 19 questionnaire and his sworn statement be entered as 20 exhibits into the hearing record today. 21 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Without 22 objection, so ordered. 23 (EXH. 8 was enter into the record.) 24 MS. SHULER: One final procedural 25 matter. I note for the record that based on the 0191 1 testimony contained in Judge Rucker's PDQ, which 2 has been included in the record, Judge Rucker meets 3 the statutory requirements for this position 4 regarding age, residence, and years of practice. 5 BY MS. SHULER: 6 Q. Judge Rucker, could you state for the 7 record the city and judicial circuit in which you 8 reside. 9 A. I reside in the City of Newberry in 10 Eighth Judicial Circuit. 11 Q. Thank you, sir. 12 Judge Rucker, after serving for 13 21 years on the Family Court bench, why do you want 14 to continue service as a Family Court judge? 15 A. Well, I enjoy it. It is a job that is 16 quite rewarding most of the time. Now there are, 17 as any job, there are periods that are not so good. 18 But as a whole, it's an enjoyable experience to 19 work with people and to help people. 20 I can go on. There are many other 21 reasons, but I enjoy dealing with the young people, 22 and the juveniles are probably one of our biggest 23 problems in South Carolina. And I enjoy working 24 with them and trying to help them get on with their 25 lives and do better in this world. 0192 1 Q. Thank you, sir. 2 Judge Rucker, you address this in your 3 sworn affidavit, but would you explain to the 4 commission members what you believe to be the 5 appropriate demeanor for a judge? 6 A. The appropriate demeanor for a judge 7 is the ability to listen, to be fair, to -- gosh, I 8 guess stay calm and rule according to the evidence 9 that you've heard. 10 You cannot do anything to make people 11 believe that you're on one side or on the other 12 side, not only in court but really in everyday 13 life. I mean, it's also -- I think, basically you 14 follow the golden rule; you treat people as you 15 would want to be treated. 16 Q. Thank you, Judge Rucker. 17 Could you explain to the commission 18 your general philosophy for dealing with pro se 19 litigant or self-represented litigants who come 20 before you in the Family Court? 21 A. Well, the thing you have to do -- 22 well, that goes back to the golden rule. You treat 23 them like you'd want to be treated. You have to be 24 fair with them. There's a limit on how far a judge 25 can go in helping them, especially if you have 0193 1 someone on the other side. You try to help them 2 through. 3 You cannot actually present the case 4 for them, but you treat them as you would anyone 5 else. There're people trying to do things for 6 themselves. A lot of times it's because they 7 simply can't afford to do otherwise. 8 Q. Thank you, Judge Rucker. 9 As a follow-up, what is your general 10 philosophy with regard to allowing them 11 continuances? 12 A. If they ask for a continuance, I'll 13 consider it and most likely will grant it. There 14 are many times that I've had to continue cases for 15 pro se litigants because they simply didn't have a 16 witness with them, they didn't know how to proceed, 17 they hadn't given notice to the other side. 18 So you're continuing to tell them to 19 seek some advice, go to Legal Aid. Legal Aid is 20 probably one of the better places that they can go 21 to seek advice. And you continue it and have them 22 schedule it, you know, in the future. 23 But if they see -- you're looking for 24 fairness. And if you feel it's going to be unfair, 25 you continue it, to let them go get a lawyer or to 0194 1 seek advice. 2 Q. Thank you, Judge Rucker. 3 Some housekeeping matters to cover 4 with you. 5 Have you sought or received the pledge 6 of any legislator prior this date? 7 A. No, ma'am. 8 Q. Have you sought or have you been 9 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 10 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 11 A. No, ma'am. 12 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 13 contact members of general assembly on your behalf? 14 A. No, ma'am. 15 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 16 commission? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you understand that you're 19 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 20 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 21 Commission's report? 22 A. Yes, ma'am. 23 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 24 guidelines on pledging? 25 A. Yes, ma'am. 0195 1 Q. Are you aware that if you violate the 2 pledging guidelines, it's a misdemeanor and you 3 could subject to a fine of up to a thousand dollars 4 and imprisonment of not more than 90 days? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 MS. SHULER: I would note that the 7 Piedmont Citizens Committee found that Judge Rucker 8 was well qualified for each of the nine evaluative 9 criteria: Constitutional qualification, ethical 10 fitness, professional and academic ability, 11 character and reputation, physical health, mental 12 stability, experience, and judicial temperament. 13 I would just note for the record that 14 any concerns raised during the investigation 15 regarding this candidate were incorporated in my 16 questioning of the candidate today. 17 Mr. Chairman, I have no further 18 questions for Judge Rucker. 19 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Let me see 20 if any members of the committee have any question. 21 Senator from Lexington. 22 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you. 23 Judge Rucker, as a neighboring county 24 of Lexington, I'd like your opinion on something 25 and your philosophy on it. 0196 1 JUDGE RUCKER: Okay. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: You know, we have bad 3 problem with deadbeat dads and moms that leave the 4 state and even -- and even sometimes evade arrest 5 for child support even in the state for long, long 6 periods of time, sometimes years. 7 And they accumulate thousands and 8 thousands of dollars in back child support with 9 never ever even attempting to try to work within 10 the system to do what the court ordered them. 11 What is your philosophy on people who 12 have had bench warrants issued like this? 13 And law enforcement and DSS officials 14 that went to a great extent of trying to locate 15 them and sometimes even transporting them back from 16 other states, have to extradite them or await 17 extradition or whatever with the interstate 18 agreement that they have. 19 What's your philosophy on handling 20 these type of cases? 21 JUDGE RUCKER: Of course, they bring 22 them in front of you and you look at what is owed, 23 the number of times they have been in the court, 24 you find out what has happened. 25 And of course, if you find that it was 0197 1 willful, and in most of these cases, as you 2 mentioned, it is, I mean I can't deal with any 3 particular case, but if they have, in fact, been 4 evading the statute, it has been willfully willful, 5 and you find them in contempt and you give them an 6 opportunity to purge themselves by paying an amount 7 of dollars. 8 And you try to determine after 9 discussing things with them what you could possibly 10 get. You know, the bad ones, you know they're in 11 jail, but they always have a right to purge 12 themselves by paying money on the -- we hold in 13 civil contempt. 14 That's all we can really deal with is 15 civil contempt, which they have to have a right to 16 hold the key to the jail, to pay the amount. They 17 pay the amount that's due plus the expenses and 18 they can get out. 19 I don't know whether I've answered 20 your question completely, but it's case by case. 21 SEN. KNOTTS: You don't have a -- do 22 away with the amount owed? 23 JUDGE RUCKER: No, sir. We don't have 24 the authority to do away with the arrears. 25 SEN. KNOTTS: The other question I 0198 1 want to ask you right quick, are you all -- does 2 your county solicitor's office utilize the old law 3 on the books concerning failure to pay child 4 support or support to children, the 1881 law? 5 JUDGE RUCKER: No, sir. When I first 6 started practicing law, yes. The solicitor's 7 office in Newberry County, they certainly did. I 8 don't think they do anymore. I -- we see them all 9 coming into Family Court. 10 You're talking about bringing them in 11 criminal? 12 SEN. KNOTTS: Right, criminal 13 decision. 14 JUDGE RUCKER: I don't know. I don't 15 know because I don't have any real contact with the 16 solicitor's office in that regard. 17 SEN. KNOTTS: That's left up to the 18 clerk? 19 JUDGE RUCKER: Yes. 20 SEN. KNOTTS: It's their option, 21 right? 22 JUDGE RUCKER: Yeah, it would be in 23 the clerk's office and the solicitor's office to 24 decide what to do about it, but I don't think they 25 do. I think I would have heard about it being a 0199 1 small county. 2 SEN. KNOTTS: We do it in Lexington. 3 JUDGE RUCKER: You do? 4 SEN. KNOTTS: Yes. 5 JUDGE RUCKER: Is it working? 6 SEN. KNOTTS: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE RUCKER: Well, that might be 8 something we need to discuss with Jerry Peace in 9 the Eighth Circuit. But if they're doing it, I'm 10 not aware of it. I've been down here in Columbia 11 for the last year. I'm administrative judge here 12 in the Fifth Circuit. 13 SEN. KNOTTS: All right. 14 JUDGE RUCKER: So -- 15 SEN. KNOTTS: I just wanted to get a 16 feel of neighboring counties on how to handle child 17 support in those type of cases. 18 JUDGE RUCKER: Well, I'm pretty sure 19 that we've asked the sheriff's officer and he's 20 discussed it with Jerry Peace and they're finding a 21 way to do something there. 22 SEN. KNOTTS: Thank you. 23 JUDGE RUCKER: I thank you. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 25 If not, Judge Rucker, this completes this portion 0200 1 of the screening process. 2 I would just point out to you that the 3 Citizens Committee found you very well qualified. 4 And also one thing we noticed, we had no complaints 5 about your temperament. It's always good, because 6 that's an important commodity. If we don't hear 7 some things, it's always a good sign that you're 8 doing a good job. 9 JUDGE RUCKER: Oh, I appreciate those 10 people that investigated me. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 12 JUDGE RUCKER: Thank you. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: As you know, the record 14 will remain open until the report is published, and 15 you may be called back at such time if the need 16 arises. 17 I remind you of the 48-hour rule and 18 ask you to be very mindful of it. So mindful, in 19 fact, if anyone approaches you to be -- indicate 20 they wish to be an advocate or not for you in the 21 event that we reported you out you, if you would 22 remind of the 48-hour rule. 23 With that, we thank you for offering 24 and for your service to the people of South 25 Carolina. Have a good evening. 0201 1 JUDGE RUCKER: Thank you, and a good 2 evening to you all. 3 (Judge Rucker exited the room.) 4 (Off-the-record discussion.) 5 (Judge McMahon entered the room.) 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go 7 back on the report at this time. And we have 8 before us the Honorable Judy McMahon, Family Court, 9 Ninth Circuit, Seat Number 3. Is that correct? 10 All right. 11 Would you be so kind as to raise your 12 right hand. 13 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 14 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 15 God? 16 JUDGE McMAHON: I do. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 18 The Judicial Merit Selection 19 commission has thoroughly investigated your 20 qualifications for the bench. 21 Our inquiries has focused on our nine 22 evaluative criteria, it has included a survey of 23 the bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 24 application materials, a verification of your 25 compliance with state ethics laws, a search of 0202 1 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a 2 study of previous screenings, and a check for 3 economic conflicts of interest. 4 We have received an untimely affidavit 5 filed in opposition to your election. The 6 commission voted that good cause was not shown for 7 considering the untimely affidavit. No witnesses 8 are present to testify. 9 I would ask you if you have any brief 10 opening statement you wish to make. It is purely 11 optional. The procedure is I will turn you over to 12 counsel who will ask you a series of questions. At 13 the conclusion of that, the Commissioners may have 14 some questions, and we'll wrap up the hearing. 15 JUDGE McMAHON: No. I don't have an 16 opening. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Please 18 answer counsel's questions. 19 MR. FIFFICK: Mr. Chairman and members 20 of the commission, I have a few procedural matters 21 to take care of with this candidate. 22 BY MR. FIFFICK: 23 Q. Judge McMahon, you have before you the 24 personal data questionnaire you submitted as part 25 of your application. 0203 1 Is there any amendment you would like 2 to make at this time to your PDQ? 3 A. No. 4 MR. FIFFICK: At this time, 5 Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that Judge 6 McMahon's personal data questionnaire be entered as 7 an exhibit into the hearing record. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 9 ordered. 10 (EXH. 9 was enter into the record.) 11 BY MR. FIFFICK: 12 Q. Judge McMahon, you also have before 13 you the sworn statement that you provided with 14 detailed answers to over 30 questions regarding 15 judicial conduct, statutory qualifications, office 16 administration, and temperament. 17 Is there any amendment you would like 18 to make at this time to your sworn statement? 19 A. No. 20 MR. FIFFICK: At this time, 21 Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that Judge 22 McMahon's sworn statement be entered as an exhibit 23 into the hearing record. 24 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 25 ordered. 0204 1 BY MR. FIFFICK: 2 Q. Judge McMahon, could you please state 3 for the record the city and judicial circuit within 4 which you reside. 5 A. Charleston, South Carolina, the Ninth 6 Judicial Circuit. 7 Q. With that, I note for the record that 8 based on the testimony contained in candidate's 9 PDQ, which has been included in the record with the 10 candidate's consent, Judge McMahon meets the 11 statutory requirements for this position regarding 12 ages, residence and years of practice. 13 Judge McMahon, why do you want to 14 continue to serve as a Family Court judge? 15 A. I went to law school with the hope 16 that one day I would be a Family Court judge. And 17 when I was elected in February 1983, it was really 18 just a dream come true for me. 19 I've served 27 years. I think my best 20 years are ahead of me. I have enjoyed the 21 opportunity to serve the children and the families 22 of South Carolina. And it's just, like I said, 23 been a dream come true. 24 I think one thing that's important to 25 say is that in 27 years, I do not feel like I've 0205 1 heard the same case twice. Each person's unique, 2 and I think I'm very patient, I think that it's 3 just been a wonderful privilege to have this 4 position. 5 Q. Thank you. 6 Judge McMahon, although you address 7 this in your sworn affidavit, could you please tell 8 the members of the commission what you think the 9 appropriate demeanor is for a judge? 10 A. Patient understanding, but primarily 11 patience. People -- Family Court deals with the 12 most precious things we have in our society. We're 13 talking about children and their families, what 14 they've accumulated during their marriage, and 15 they've got to have an opportunity to present their 16 case. And they've to have an opportunity to have a 17 judge that's going to listen until the very last 18 witness is finished. 19 I have seen cases where the last 20 witness, after they've been cross-examined, make 21 the case look so different than when we first 22 started and just hear the plaintiff on direct. 23 And I have the privilege too to work 24 with law students who are interns, and that's one 25 thing I emphasize to them. Sometimes in the middle 0206 1 of a case we'll walk out and the law students will 2 say, What do you think, what do you think? And I 3 say, It's never over until it's over. It's not 4 over until the last witness. And knowing you have 5 a complicated case, it's not over until you've 6 really gone through your notes and the exhibits. 7 And we are a judge, we are a jury, and 8 we have to have time to deliberate too. So patient 9 and dedication to be open-minded until the end. 10 Q. And along those same lines, what is 11 your philosophy as to pro se litigants? 12 A. I'm very patient with pro se, I really 13 am, if they've procedurally done everything 14 correctly. But if they stumble, I mean I just help 15 them through it and without being a lawyer for 16 them. 17 If they don't bring their order, I 18 prepare their order for them. If they've got a 19 procedural defect and we can't go forward, if they 20 haven't given notice to the other side as they 21 should properly under the law, then, you know, we 22 can't do it. 23 And I try to explain it to them and I 24 try and look at their file and try and see what the 25 problems are so that they won't have to keep coming 0207 1 back two, three times and have a different judge 2 tell them they've got different problems each time. 3 Plus it's not only good for the 4 pro se, but it's also good for court time, you 5 know, scheduling them three and four times. And I 6 think it gives them a feeling that, you know, that 7 it's a fair process if they can understand why they 8 couldn't go forward. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 I've got a couple more questions to 11 ask you here that we ask of every candidate. 12 A. All right. 13 Q. Have you sought or received the pledge 14 of any legislator prior to this date? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you sought or have you been 17 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 18 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 21 contact members of the general assembly on your 22 behalf? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 25 commission? 0208 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you understand that you are 3 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 4 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 5 commission's report? 6 A. I understand. 7 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 8 guidelines on pledging? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. As a follow-up, are you aware of the 11 penalties for violating the pledging rules, that 12 is, it is a misdemeanor, and upon conviction, a 13 violator must be fined not more than $1,000 or in 14 prison not more than 90 days? 15 A. I understand. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 MR. FIFFICK: I would now note that 18 the Lowcountry Citizens Committee reported that 19 Judge McMahon is well qualified in all areas. 20 Finally, I would also note for the 21 record that any concerns raised during the 22 investigation regarding the candidate were 23 incorporated into the questioning of the candidate 24 today. 25 Mr. Chairman, I have no further 0209 1 questions. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 3 Any member of the commission have any 4 questions? 5 Well, this concludes this portion of 6 our screening process. I want to stop and tell you 7 that the Lowcountry Citizens Committee, we put a 8 lot of stock in their review, not only found you 9 just qualified, they found you well qualified. 10 They also didn't indicate any concerns 11 with your temperament or your fairness. So that's 12 a real commendation. 13 JUDGE McMAHON: Thank you. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Great record. 15 JUDGE McMAHON: Thank you. 16 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, we would 17 tell you that our record remains open until the 18 report is published, and you may be called back at 19 such time as the need arises. I know of absolutely 20 nothing outstanding. 21 I remind you of the 48-hour rule and 22 ask you to be mindful of that. So mindful, in 23 fact, that if anyone inquires about whether or not 24 they can advocate for you, please remind them of 25 the 48-hour rule. 0210 1 With that, we thank you for offering, 2 and we thank you for your service to the people of 3 South Carolina. Have a good evening. 4 JUDGE McMAHON: Thank you. 5 (Judge McMahon exited the room.) 6 (Off-the-record discussion.) 7 (Judge Landis entered the room.) 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go 9 back on the record at this time. We have before us 10 the Honorable Jack A. Landis, Family Court, Ninth 11 Circuit, Seat Number 6. 12 Good evening, sir. 13 JUDGE LANDIS: Good evening. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: If you'd raise your 15 right hand, please. 16 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 17 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 18 God? 19 JUDGE LANDIS: I do. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Judicial Merit 21 Selection Committee has thoroughly investigated 22 your qualifications for the bench. 23 Our inquiries have focused on nine 24 evaluative criteria and has included a survey of 25 the bench and the bar, a thorough study of your 0211 1 application materials, a verification of your 2 compliance with state ethics laws, a search of the 3 newspaper articles in which your name appears, a 4 study of previous screenings, and a check for 5 economic conflicts of interest. 6 We've received no affidavits filed in 7 opposition to your election. No witnesses are 8 present to testify. You're welcome to make an 9 opening statement which is optional if you wish. 10 The procedure otherwise will be, I'll 11 turn you over to counsel. Counsel will have some 12 questions for you. At the conclusion of that -- 13 excuse me -- the Commissioners have questions, and 14 we'll wrap up the hearing. 15 JUDGE LANDIS: I think I'll take the 16 option and not make an opening statement. 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 18 With that, please answer the counsel's 19 questions. 20 BY MS. SHULER: 21 Q. Good evening, Judge Landis. 22 You have before you the personal data 23 questionnaire you submitted as part of your 24 application, as well as a letter amendment dated 25 November -- excuse me -- September 9th, 2009 to 0212 1 question number 33. 2 Are there any other additional 3 amendments that you would like to make at this 4 time? 5 A. No, ma'am. 6 Q. All right. 7 MS. SHULER: I would ask that Judge 8 Landis' personal data questionnaire and letter 9 amendment be entered as an exhibit into the hearing 10 record. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 12 ordered. 13 (EXH. 10 was enter into the record.) 14 BY MS. SHULER: 15 Q. Judge Landis, you also have before you 16 the sworn statement. You provided detailed answers 17 to over 30 questions regarding judicial conduct, 18 statutory qualification, office administration, and 19 temperament. 20 Are there any amendments that you 21 would like to make to your sworn statement at this 22 time? 23 A. No, ma'am. 24 MS. SHULER: Mr. Chairman, I would ask 25 that Judge Landis' sworn statement be entered as an 0213 1 exhibit into the record at this time. 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection, so 3 ordered. 4 MS. SHULER: I would note for the 5 record that Judge Jack Landis meets the statutory 6 requirements for this position regarding age, 7 residence, and years of practice. 8 BY MS. SHULER: 9 Q. Judge Landis, if you would state the 10 city and judicial circuit in which you reside. 11 A. I live in Moncks Corners, and it's the 12 Ninth Judicial Circuit. 13 Q. Thank you. 14 Judge Landis, why do you want to 15 continue serving as a Family Court judge? 16 A. The most honest answer I can give you 17 is I love the job. It's a great job. You know, 18 I've practiced law for about 18 years, and I was -- 19 I wasn't the greatest lawyer. I was competent, but 20 I think I'm a much better judge than I was a 21 lawyer. 22 I like doing what I do. I like 23 working with people. I like working with the 24 lawyers. And I just I feel blessed and privileged 25 that I'm able to do this job. 0214 1 Q. Judge Landis, what do you believe to 2 be the demeanor of a judge? 3 A. I think we have to maintain order in 4 the courtroom, and we have to make sure that people 5 respect the institution. 6 But I don't think you have to have the 7 demeanor that we -- that people have come to expect 8 from the media. They see judges nowadays on 9 television that are off the wall, and that's not 10 what a judge needs to be. 11 I think everybody needs to be shown 12 respect. When they come to a hearing, they need to 13 feel like that they've had an opportunity to be 14 heard, they need to feel like they had an 15 opportunity to get a fair decision or at least a 16 considered decision. 17 They may not agree with the decision, 18 but they need to feel like they were respected as 19 people. People come into court all the time that 20 have done horrible things. 21 Everybody can make a mistake. That 22 doesn't excuse their horrible act, but it doesn't 23 make them any less of a human being. And they're 24 entitled to respect. And any human being is 25 entitled to it. 0215 1 I think you need to be pleasant, I 2 think you need to be courteous, and I think you 3 need to be respectful. But I think you need to 4 maintain order. 5 Q. As a follow-up, in maintaining order, 6 is anger ever appropriate in the courtroom? 7 A. I think to show anger is not. I don't 8 think there's anybody that does this job that can't 9 get angry from time to time. We all have bad days. 10 And there are going to be times when 11 something might get on your nerves or a particular 12 fact situation. We deal with children that get 13 horribly abused from time to time. 14 And if you don't get angry at what 15 someone's done to a child and some of the 16 circumstances that we hear, I think you've got a 17 problem. 18 But I don't think it's appropriate to 19 show that anger. I don't think it's appropriate to 20 let that anger cloud your judgment or control 21 anything about your decision. 22 Q. Thank you, Judge Landis. 23 What is your general philosophy with 24 respect to pro se litigants or self-represented 25 litigants that appear to the courtroom before you? 0216 1 A. We get a lot more self-represented 2 litigants now than we used to. And my philosophy 3 really hasn't changed on that. We can't deviate 4 from the rules. When a self-represented litigant 5 comes in, they still have to abide by the rules of 6 procedure. It has to be technically right. 7 But I don't belittle them. I make it 8 clear to them that if I'm continuing their case, 9 it's because they made a procedural error, and what 10 that error is, and they've got to correct it to 11 come back in. 12 But I tend -- I might be on the 13 liberal side in this regard -- I hate to use that 14 word with this group -- but I help people through 15 things, especially on uncontested divorce. These 16 folks come in, nobody's contesting it, it's a 17 basic, simple one-year divorce. I'm generally 18 going to lead them through it and help them through 19 because it does a couple things. 20 It clears out cases from the docket, 21 it gets these people what they need because 22 nobody's objecting to it, it's what they want, 23 they've met all the statutory requirements, they 24 met all the procedural requirements. And they 25 leave the court with a good feeling about the 0217 1 system. 2 And we don't need any more bad 3 publicity. We hear enough bad things about lawyers 4 and our judicial system and our court system. It's 5 nice when we can do something and people leave with 6 a good feeling. 7 Q. Thank you. 8 Judge Landis, I need to cover some 9 housekeeping issues with you. 10 Have you sought or received a pledge 11 of any legislator prior to this date? 12 A. No, ma'am. 13 Q. Have you sought or have you been 14 offered a conditional pledge of support of any 15 legislator pending the outcome of your screening? 16 A. No, ma'am. 17 Q. Have you asked any third parties to 18 contact members of the general assembly on your 19 behalf? 20 A. No, ma'am. 21 Q. Have you contacted any members of the 22 commission? 23 A. No, ma'am. 24 Q. Do you understand that you're 25 prohibited from seeking a pledge or commitment 0218 1 until 48 hours after the formal release of the 2 Commission's report? 3 A. Yes, ma'am. 4 Q. Have you reviewed the Commission's 5 guidelines on pledging? 6 A. I have. 7 Q. Are you aware that the penalties are 8 that it's a misdemeanor subject to a thousand 9 dollar fine and not more than 90 days imprisonment? 10 A. Yes, ma'am. I learned that in my last 11 screening. It came as a surprise, but fortunately 12 I wasn't in violation. But I didn't realize the 13 penalties were that stiff until last time. 14 Q. Thank you, sir. 15 MS. SHULER: I would note that the 16 Lowcountry Citizens Committee found Judge Jack 17 Landis well qualified for the nine evaluative 18 criteria, that is, constitutional qualifications, 19 character, reputation, experience, judicial 20 temperament, ethical fitness, professional and 21 academic ability, physical health, and mental 22 stability. 23 I would just note for the record that 24 any concerns raised during the investigation 25 regarding this candidate were incorporated into the 0219 1 questioning of the candidate today. 2 Mr. Chairman, I have no further 3 questions for Judge Landis. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me see if any 5 members of the committee -- Representative Mack. 6 REP. MACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 Judge Landis, I think your scores and 8 your responses today were outstanding, and from all 9 indications and the report that you're a great 10 judge. Keep doing what you're doing. 11 JUDGE LANDIS: Thank you very much. 12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 13 Senator from Lexington. 14 SEN. KNOTTS: Judge Landis, I'm going 15 to tell you it's a pleasure to see a judge on the 16 bench like you. 17 JUDGE LANDIS: Well, thank you. 18 SEN. KNOTTS: You're what the system 19 needs. And like you say, we give a black eye 20 whenever we're in the media too much. And you 21 know, people in the Family Court come from 22 problems, not criminal usually. And problem 23 solvers is what we need. 24 JUDGE LANDIS: Thank you. 25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? 0220 1 I'll just tell you that the Lowcountry 2 Citizens Committee is a very active committee for 3 us and they're our eyes and ears in many ways. But 4 I notice in every single category, they didn't find 5 you just qualified, they found you well qualified. 6 It's a great record. 7 JUDGE LANDIS: I appreciate that. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that is there -- 9 if there's no further questions, this will conclude 10 this portion of our screening process. As you 11 know, the record will remain open until the report 12 is published. You could be called back at such 13 time. I know of no outstanding issues. 14 But I remind you of the 48-hour rule 15 and ask you to be mindful of it. So mindful of the 16 fact that if someone should approach you and 17 indicate they -- as to whether or not they may or 18 may not advocate for you in the event that you're 19 reported out by this Committee, that you remind 20 them of the 48-hour rule. 21 JUDGE LANDIS: Yes, sir. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, thank you 23 for offering. Thank you for your service to the 24 people of South Carolina. And have a good evening. 25 JUDGE LANDIS: Thank you very much. 0221 1 You-all have a good evening too. 2 (Judge Landis exited the room.) 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: This concludes all the 4 candidates for the day. Why don't we go into 5 executive session to take comments, and then we'll 6 come out. 7 All right. We'll go -- is there an 8 objection to going into executive session to take 9 any personal comments and if we need to, receive 10 any advice from lawyers? 11 There being none, let the record show 12 that those in attendance, Senator Nicholson, 13 Mr. Harrell -- well, everybody here with the 14 proxies -- anyway, it's a unanimous vote to go into 15 executive session. 16 With that, Sergeant, secure the 17 chambers. 18 (Members went into executive session 19 from 6:08 p.m. to 6:38 p.m.) 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go back on 21 record. The doors are now open and it's been 22 published in the hall that we're back in open 23 session. 24 First, I will report that we were in 25 executive session and no formal actions were taken 0222 1 by this commission in executive session. 2 Is there any business to come before 3 us? 4 Professor Freeman. 5 PROF. FREEMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would 6 like to state that I have had a change of heart as 7 to the qualifications for Frederick Newton and 8 Patrick Watts. I find them minimally qualified and 9 have changed my ballot accordingly. 10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection 11 to the Professor recording his vote based upon 12 further analysis? 13 There being none, let the record show 14 that he had recorded finding them minimally 15 qualified. 16 With that, is there anything further 17 to come before us tonight? We're scheduled for 18 nine a.m. in the morning -- 19 MS. SHULER: Yes, sir. 20 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- executive session? 21 I suspect we will also at that point -- people will 22 have a chance to review the materials, further 23 deliberate, and we'll try to take up the question 24 of any qualifications and nominations that are 25 pending as a result of our hearing today. 0223 1 With that, we stand in recess to the 2 next calling. Let the record show it was done 3 without objections. 4 (The proceedings concluded at 5 6:39 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0224 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 3 4 I, Sonia I. Mendez, Court Reporter and Notary Public for the State of South Carolina at Large, do 5 hereby certify: 6 That the foregoing proceedings were taken before me on the date and at the time mentioned on 7 page 1 and the proceedings were recorded stenographically by me and were thereafter 8 transcribed under my direction; that the foregoing transcript as typed is a true, accurate and 9 complete record of the proceedings to the best of my ability. 10 I further certify that I am neither related to 11 nor counsel for any party to the cause pending or interested in the events thereof. 12 Witness my hand, I have hereunto affixed my 13 official seal this 18th day of November 2009, at Columbia, Richland County, South Carolina. 14 15 16 17 ____________________________________ Sonia I. Mendez, 18 Court Reporter, Notary Public State of South Carolina 19 at Large. My commission expires 20 March 23, 2017. 21 22 23 24 25 0225 1 2 I N D E X 3 Page 4 HONORABLE FRANCES P. "CHARLIE" 88 SEGARS-ANDREWS 5 6 HONORABLE DIANE SCHAFER GOODSTEIN 105 7 HONORABLE WILLIAM J. WYLIE, JR. 136 8 9 HONORABLE NANCY CHAPMAN McLIN 153 10 HONORABLE GEORGE MARION McFADDEN, JR. 165 11 12 HONORABLE DOROTHY MOBLEY JONES 176 13 HONORABLE JOHN M. RUCKER 189 14 15 HONORABLE JUDY L. McMAHON 201 16 HONORABLE JACK ALAN LANDIS 210 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25