Journal of the Senate
of the First Session of the 111th General Assembly
of the State of South Carolina
being the Regular Session Beginning Tuesday, January 10, 1995

Page Finder Index
| Printed Page 2850, May 18 | Printed Page 2870, May 18 |
Printed Page 2860 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
even talking... I just mentioned talking to my friends and acquaintances and people I work with, they really did not know how the commission could help them in consumer complaints. I even went to the telephone directory and could not find a telephone number for them. Even the new directory that came out this week does not have a listing for the Consumer Affairs Commission under the State of South Carolina departments. It does have a number at the very beginning which was not in there previously. So as I continued the research I also found out that there are nine members of the commission, one of which is the Secretary of State. However, seven of those nine members come from the Columbia area to the northwest of the state. In other words, there's three in Greenville, one in Anderson, one's out of Columbia, the Secretary of State, I believe, is listed as Chapin and then Camden. There's one from Moncks Corner and one from Hartsville, so we're skewed distribution if you're concerned about distribution. We're in... I'm in North Augusta on a border community where most of the people in North Augusta do their business with... for goods and services out of Augusta, Georgia. So I was interested to try to find out how you could bring that together if we had a consumer complaint across the state line and I have not been able to answer that question. I also found out that most of the members... I take that back. I think that six of the nine members of the commission are primarily concerned with providing consumer goods or services. I'm not exactly sure about two of them who I was told are semi-retired. Now I don't know what semi-retired means, but, in other words, it looked like we're skewed not only geographically but skewed towards the people in business that are providers of goods and services and we don't have good representation for those people on the borders of the state, on the southeast or the coastal area of the state and for those people that are primarily receivers of goods and services. So with that and my experiences as an engineer, I felt that I would make a good representative on the commission and that that would be a more... make it a more diverse commission and I'll say that with my experience as an engineer I have been able to resolve some of the complaints myself by knowing the technical background of the issue on personal problems I've had with services and goods. So, with all that, I felt that I would... or someone with my background, not necessarily me, but someone with a technical background and someone that was primarily a receiver of goods and services would make a good addition to the commission.
Printed Page 2861 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
Q: Mr. Hinton, obviously you've done homework as far as members of the commission are concerned and all and about the commission. What did you see the purpose of the Consumer Affairs Commission to be?
A: Well, the Consumer Affairs Commission is... well, the commissioners are the policy making group as I understand it. The Secretary of the State is the permanent member of the commission and there's four that's elected by the... or appointed by the Governor with agreement with the senate and then there's four that's appointed by the senate, I think, the way it is.
Q: Your engineering background with a lot of technicalities, I can tell. Aside from the numbers and so forth, why do we need the Consumer Affairs agency? I guess that's what I'm asking.
A: Well, the Consumer Affairs agency as I recall from reading about it is they have the advocacy group which has to do with the consumer complaints and they represent the citizens with the rate with the public service authority. Whether it be electricity, water or whatever. And also there is a legal group that, if I remember correctly, that reviews the complaints and, if necessary, they investigate they try to resolve, if they can't resolve then they help the people with their legal actions.
Q: Do you feel like it's an honest job from what you know about it?
A: From what I've seen, I've seen the 1993 annual report. Very impressive. One of the things I found in there, there was ninety-seven complaints from Aiken County. I didn't see any from North Augusta, but there were ninety-seven complaints from Aiken County, all of which I think were resolved satisfactorily.
Q: Do the members of the commission have any questions?
MR. HINTON BEING EXAMINED BY MS. WHIPPLE:
Q: I see you've been a Boy Scout Master for twenty-five years?
A: Approximately twenty-five years. Two years after I came out of college I was Scout Master for about twelve years and then because of my age of my children I dropped out for about three or four years and then was... continued for another twelve years.
Q: It seems that you've been very conscientious in your commitment to your community organizations and you feel that you'd be able to bring that same kind of commitment to this?
A: Yes, I feel like that I... I don't want to get involved with something I can't devote my full attention to and do the best of my ability. Whether it's civic organization or with my church or even with my former employer. If I couldn't do the best job I could I don't want
Printed Page 2862 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
to undertake it. And I do have the time now to devote to something like this commission. I understand that it meets Tuesdays, second Tuesday of the month, I believe, is the way that it was stated.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
Response: None
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hinton, we appreciate your willingness to offer your time to this agency and appreciate your coming here today and answering the questions for us. We will file a report after several days, decide whose qualified and if qualified, we don't anticipate any problems finding you qualified. But, you need to understand that you cannot seek commitments from anyone in the House or the Senate until the report has been filed on the floor of the House and the Senate. You can certainly meet people and introduce yourself to the members of the general assembly, write a letter if you want to stating that you are a candidate and that you have been through screening but the report hasn't come out yet. You cannot ask for any kind of support or any commitment from anyone until that report is filed on the floor. Okay? Do you have any questions you would like to ask of us?
A: No. You said there's a letter will come out in the next two or three days, is that...
THE CHAIRMAN: The report of the commitment will come out in the next several days. We'll do that as quick as we can but we don't know just yet when that will be. But you... I'm just telling you you can write a letter if you feel like you would like to do so to the members of the general assembly introducing yourself to them, giving them your background or resume or whatever you'd like to do. You're certainly welcome to meet the members of the general assembly and introduce yourself to the, but you cannot ask anyone to commit to vote for you or to support you until the report from the committee has to be filed on the floor of the House and the Senate.
A: Then I will be notified of that?
THE CHAIRMAN: Just as soon as we have it, we'll notify you of it and when it will be introduced on the floor.
A: Okay. Very good. Well, thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The next is Mr. Lesselbaum.
(OFF THE RECORD)

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lesselbaum, if you'll have a seat right there for me.
A: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Want to welcome you with us today and...
A: Thank you, sir.
Printed Page 2863 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
THE CHAIRMAN:And thank you for your willingness to serve and providing us with information that you have. And also your admission that you're a "Damned Yankee", I believe is the way you termed it in your letter here.
A: Two words now though, not one.
THE CHAIRMAN: And though you say you have the accent that you are or consider yourself a South Carolinian.
A: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: We have some formal questions that we have to ask you as we do the other candidates.
A: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Then we'll open the floor for any questions by members of the committee. And before I begin questioning, I need to put you under oath, would you raise your right hand for me, please, sir.
MR. LESSELBAUM, being duly sworn testifies as follows:

PERSONAL DATA QUESTIONNAIRE SUMMARY

1. Harold R. Lesselbaum

Home Address:

1829 Senate Street, Apt. 16-D

Columbia, South Carolina 29201

2. He was born 12/18/19 in Newark, New Jersey. He is presently 75 years old. Social Security #: ***-**-****.

5. He was married 7/31/42 to Muriel Schulman Lesselbaum. They have one child, Judith Maziar, age 50. She is a school teacher is Atlanta.

6. Military Service: Enlisted April 1942 - Army corps of Engineers. Corporal - Serial # 12064042. Certified disability, Honorable Discharge 10/18/43

7. Education: B.S. Forestry, Univ. of Ga., June 1941. He was awarded a certificate in surveying given in an Engineering, Science and Defense training course at Wake Forest College.

8. PUBLIC SERVICE: Member permanent advisory Council of SC State Development Board - 11/86 - 7/88. President of Williamsburg County Health Planning commission (Physician Recruitment) 15 years. Member of Town of Kingstree zoning Board of Appeals - 2

Printed Page 2864 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
years. Member of Town of Kingstree Beautification Committee. Past President of Temple Beth of Kingstree. Former member and director of Kingstree Chamber of Commerce.

9. Organizations: Kingstree Masonic Lodge. Past Deputy Dist. Governor Lions Inter. Score volunteer. Treas. for friends of the Library of Kingstree. Publicity chairman for Williamsburg Co. unit American Cancer Society. Currently secretary for State Legislative Committee AARP. Vice Pres. for Heritage Homeowners Assoc. Board of Directors.

10. CHRONOLOGICAL REVIEW OF EMPLOYMENT HISTORY:Florida Forest service - 1941. US Corps of Engineers in Charleston, SC - 1942. District Forester, SC Forest Service in Florence and Kingstree. Partner in Lane Lumber Co. (Lumber Mfg.), Lane, SC. Partner in Williamsburg Bldg. Supply Co. for 38 years in Kingstree, SC. Salesman for Real Estate - McGill Agency in Kingstree, SC for 8 years.

19. Additional information that should be disclosed in connection with consideration of your nomination for this position:He is a member of the Ford Dispute Settlement Board (Charlotte District) and they arbitrate consumer complaints against Ford Motor Co.

21. Five (5) letters of recommendation: (1) Jim Cherry, Pres. Williamsburg First National Bank, Kingstree, SC. (2) Herman Mischner, past chairman, Midlands Chapter of The Service Corps of Retired Executives (SCORE). (3) Dr. Jim Morris, Dean Emeritus, College of Business Adm., USC Columbia, SC. (4) Dr. John F. Clark, Joint Energy Committee, Blatt Bldg., Columbia, SC. (5) Frank Burgdorf, Real Estate Commission Columbia, SC. (6) Retired Lt. Col. Charles Davis Former member of Chemistry Dept. Faculty, USC, Columbia, SC.

MR. LESSELBAUM BEING EXAMINED BY MR. COURTNEY:
Q: Mr. Lesselbaum?
A: That's correct.
Q: Mr. Lesselbaum, do you or any member of your family own or operate any businesses contracting with the State or Federal government?
A: No, sir.

Printed Page 2865 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
Q: Do you or any member of your family own or operate any business which receives funds from the Consumer Affairs Commission?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you ever been arrested, charged or held by Federal, State or other law enforcement authorities for violation of State or Federal or local laws?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you, to your knowledge, ever been under Federal, State or local investigation for possible violations of the criminal statute?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you ever been disciplined or cited for breach of ethics or unprofessional conduct by any court, agency, association or professional group?
A: No, sir.
Q: Are you now or have you ever been employed as a lobbyist or acted in the capacity of a lobbyist principal?
A: No, sir. I had better interject to keep the record straight. I am a member of the AARP State Legislative Committee, so I am an unpaid lobbyist.
Q: All right. In that capacity do you attend meetings here in the legislature?
A: Periodically, to monitor certain bills that would be of benefit to senior citizens.
Q: Okay. And in that capacity, do you discuss with the members of the legislature pending legislation, have you done that in the past?
A: I have made some calls, yes, sir, to an individual member of the legislature.
Q: How long has it been since you've been involved? Has it been recent?
A: About a... a little over a year.
Q: Are you a registered lobbyist?
A: No, sir.
Q: Just a member of the organization?
A: That's right.
Q: Any member of the committee have any other questions about that particular question?
MR. BAILEY: No, sir. Just for the record, I don't see any conflict there as long as you're not, you know, registered and not a lobbyist.
A: No, no.
MR. BAILEY: You sure have your right to voice your opinion.
A: Yes, sir.
Printed Page 2866 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
Q: Can you think of any reasons, any other legal reason why you may have difficulty performing your duties of this elected position?
A: None whatsoever.
Q: Mr. Lesselbaum, we've been provided with your application and letters of recommendation and all, but we'd like to hear from you a little bit about yourself, why you're interested in becoming a member of the Consumer Affairs Commission, how you think you can contribute to it as it serves the citizens of South Carolina.
A: Yes, sir. I've covered a good bit of it in my letter that you have. I don't have to read that again, you've read it, I presume. Or do I read the statement I have here?
Q: Each of us have that. It refers to a little background about yourself. The employment you had and what experience you've had you feel would help you in serving.
A: Well, there's going in setting up this letter to you about my qualifications, there's something that in afterthought I did overlook that I want to bring up right now. When I came to South Carolina I started out in Camden in the district forest office as a forest technician. Soon thereafter, within the year, a vacancy opened in the Florence District and they made me district forester in Florence and subsequently the state passed a fire control act which created a new district office in Kingstree. I put in for that office mainly because I couldn't find a place to live in Florence at the time for my wife and eight months old baby. Having been involved as a district forester one of our aims and purposes is to aid and assist land owners in the management of their timer and that was my first experience where I was exposed to certain unethical practices, namely a farmer has a wood lot and he wants to sell his timber. He doesn't think in terms of a timber cruise or land examination. A logger comes along and says, "Here, I'll offer you X number of dollars for this piece of timber." He doesn't know whether he's getting too much or too little. The forest service would render a service where we would go in for the land owner or timber owner, make a woodland examination, give him a report and if he wants to sell his timber we would go in and selectively mark the trees to be cut so that he's insured of two things, an accurate estimate of what's he getting, the value he's getting for his timber and also setting up a sort of sustained yield basis so that maybe his children or grandchildren down the road will still have timber to cut. So this is my first experience with something that would be unethical and therefore, I became, back then, very sympathetic with the consumer. And I felt
Printed Page 2867 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
that has helped me with all these other things, maybe me to the point where I, myself, am a consumer so I'm also being kind of selfish, I want the consumer to be protected. I'm very impressed, I read the legislation or the legislation for the setup of your department for consumer affairs and I was very impressed. I'm retired, I'm still involved in some things, as you may have read. I just got back last week, the Ford Consumer Appeals Board, Charlotte District, where once a month we meet, a four member board, completely unbiased, no affiliation with Ford Motor Company, whatsoever. You as a consumer comes in with a complaint against a dealer or a company. You cannot have any reconciliation. You come before us and we analyze the thing. The board consists of a Ford dealer, a qualified automotive expert and two lay persons, or two consumers I should say. I'm one of the consumers on that board. It is so unbiased if it's a tie vote, if two vote for the consumer and two against the consumer automatically gets the decision. On the contrary if the vote goes to Ford Motor Company, that would have to be unanimous or three to one. The consumer still has restitution because he could go through litigation.
Q: How were you placed on that board?
A: There was an opening and I applied. In fact, I think in my resume I sent you the Ford... the Dispute Settlement Board application that shows the whole thing. My brother-in-law was on it prior and he knew he was getting off and frankly said, "Harold, this is a well worthwhile interesting experience." Incidently it's unpaid, it's strictly volunteer. They do pay my expenses to Charlotte and whatever, one hotel and all that. He said, "Harold, put in for it." I did put in for it and the selection is not made by Ford Motor Company, it's made from the University of Michigan by a fellow by the name of Doc Jim Brown and he is the... they have a division at the University of Michigan on consumer appeals. He does the analysis, he makes the decision and then he tells Ford Motor Company, this man is qualified to serve on this board.
Q: How long have you been doing that?
A: I'm in my second year now. And it is absolutely fascinating. The procedure is one week before I go to Charlotte, the meeting's on Friday. I get a packet, from Federal Express,... the maximum we ever had, I got a packet, it was twenty-five cases. You sit there... I sit there all week and go over these cases one by one, make by decision and then we meet Friday and take case by case and there were three other decisions there. We discuss it and arrive at a
Printed Page 2868 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
decision. On the application from the consumer it will say do you want to make a personal appearance. If they say yes... and some cases they have to in order for us to look at the car. Particularly on a paint job. They come before the board and we give them some time to further their request of what they want and then, in some cases, where's motor trouble we all go out and look at the car. Well, I'm a consumer, I don't know anything about automotive, so it's up to the automotive expert and he inspects the car and, in some cases, the consumer will have a legitimate excuse and sometimes they don't. So that's basically the modis operandi, you might say, and that's the way we do it. And I might go one step further. They also have another thing. Sometimes they get a decision they can turn in a rebuttal and we review the case a second time. So it's a very fair equitable method of protecting the consumer.
Q: What do you know about he Consumer Affairs agency itself as far what it's purposes in the State of South Carolina?
A: Well, I had one of the best briefings I could have ever had. At one of your state legislative committee meetings the AARP, about a year ago, Steve Hamm was our guest speaker and he spelled it out for us and that also made me very impressed with what the Consumer Affairs Commission is trying to do and I think it's... all state agencies are important. I think this is more... more important ones.
Q: What does it do?
A: Well, it's helping the consumer... well, I guess one of the big things is, incidently AARP was... monitored this utilities situation with telephone rates and electric utilities and all that. I think that might be a feather in Steve Hamm's cap. I think he was very instrumental in getting some good results there for the consumer.
Q: I believe you would be a strong advocate for the consumer.
A: You could depend on that, sir.
Q: Any questions from the members of the committee?
Response: None
Q: Mr. Lesselbaum, again we appreciate your being here and appreciate your being willing to serve. It's not often that people are willing to sacrifice their time that it is necessary to serve in capacities such as this. We commend you for that. In the next several days we will release a report that defines as to who has qualified as candidates. You cannot seek commitments from any members of the legislature at this time or ask anyone to support you at this time,...
A: Yes, sir.
Q: ... until that has been released.
Printed Page 2869 . . . . . Thursday, May 18, 1995
A: Now is that released through the press or directly to me or...
Q: We will inform you. Our staff will inform you and until it is actually reported on the floor of the house and the senate, you cannot seek commitments or support.
A: I understand that, sir.
Q: You are welcome, in the mean time, to write any letters that you want to members of the general assembly stating that you are a candidate and that you have gone through screening and that the report hasn't been released. You can introduce yourself to the members of the general assembly, around the buildings or at receptions and all that we have.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You just can't ask cannot ask for commitments or support until that is filed.
A: I understand, sir.
Q: Do you have any questions of the committee?
A: I believe that pretty well covers it. I do want to say that I appreciate thereafter opportunity of appearing before you and if I am appointed I assure you I'll do my best.
Q: It will be elected, of course, not appointed.
A: I'm sorry, I knew that. That procedure, that's a joint session of house and...
Q: That is correct.
A: I see.
Q: Thank you.
A: Thank you, very much.
Q: Good to meet you.
(OFF THE RECORD)

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Neeley, we appreciate your being here today. We appreciate your applying for this position and we have certainly have had a chance to look over your questionnaire some and all of the information that you provided. There are some formal questions that I need to ask you to begin with, that we've asked all the other candidates. And following that we'll probably open it to the committee to ask any other questions and you will have an opportunity to state anything to us you want to also. Before I ask you any question, I need to place you under oath. If you will raise your right hand for me please sir.
EDWARD NEELEY, being duly sworn testifies as follows:

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